Germany is effectively no different to here the wealth is generated by private companies - it has a different relationship with unions than we do here. Essentially the people making the decisions around wealth generation are the directors of private sector companies i.e. Capitalism or have I got that wrong? are there great swathes of public sector manufacturing, mining, banking and service providers in Germany? Germany is a federal state of course it will have different nuances to here - the fact still remains that wealth generation doesn't originate with the state.

Show me a truly socialist state where the average standard of living even approaches here?

Agreed.


Slightly, yes.
Unions and employers work together.
Factories and companies are legally obliged to have works councils.
It's not simply "the management" telling "the workers" that it's my way or the highway.


Not that I know of.
We weren't talking about nationalisation, we were talking about a fairer society, your response was "Fairer society - more claptrap".


Yes it is, a federal state is a great system IMHO (the Allies imposed it on Germany after WWII as being a fair system ... but it's not for us, oh no).
But because we are not a federal state shouldn't be a barrier to us being a fairer state.


I didn't say it did. (I wouldn't say it should either).
I pointed at a country with the sort of benefits that you say won't work in a successful economy.
By the way, the state does have a procurement policy of buying from companies that are judged to be looking good for the national economy ... the TUC here in the UK recommended this and the tories were going to adopt it but I've heard no more about it since.


I don't know what your definition of "truly socialist" would be, although I suspect you might mean Marxist Communist, miles away from what I'm talking about.

Germany has built a fairer state on [usocial democratic[/u principles, resulting in all the benefits I listed in my earlier posts PLUS a strong economy.
As a social democrat myself, I see the best system as being one that utilises the market and capital but maintains restraint on the excesses of capitalism and ensures that the economy is for the benefit of the people rather than the other way round ... like Germany so far, in fact.

I'm hoping, in the not too distant future, to be able to research a piece on how the local economy works in Collioure, where we've been holidaying for a few years. You see the same people - of all ages - doing the same jobs. Yet there must be an off-season' period, so how does it work, both for those individuals and for the wider local economy.

Not least since the wider area used to be the poorest in France, but is shrugging that off quite seriously.

One interesting point though: the local mayor is a member of the socialist party and is locally considered to have done a massive amount to boost the town's tourist appeal - not least by very judicious use of planning rules. Planning rules have kept the chains out and kept building low rise and complimentary to the old village. Collioure rules the roost of the local villages in terms of holidaymakers - not least because it has retained real charm in a way other places have not, yet is growing econonomically in other ways too (increased wine producetion by a local cooperative, of wines that are now getting much greater recognition, for instance).

It would be an interesting case study.

That's the main reason I didn't go to university. When I was at school 7 years ago and before that growing up towards the end of my tenure we had university rammed down our throats. Everyone had to go to uni. But all I saw was debt. I looked at myself and thought, you're not very academically gifted so all it's going to be is some average degree at an average university which has no direct route into a tangible career and will do little to further my situation in life when I leave. Sure there partying and getting drunk, but i could do that while earning a full time wage. If i had gone to Uni i would be in a similiar situation as I am now except with debt. In fact probably worse as i would have less emplyment experience and i'd be looking for a job at a time when the market was in a downward spiral. I think thousands of young people have been duped into going to uni.

It keeps them occupied for the next three (or longer) years, hopefully until things improve on the job's front.

Completely agree.

My experience is somewhat similar to yours in the sense that schools were only interested in pushing HE. I did go to university in the end, but was fortunate to fall into an industry that I happen to have made a very good career out of. Yes, for many, university is the best way forward but for many others, it very much the opposite. My brother, for example, was not academically minded but was still persuaded that a degree was the best option. He dropped out after a year.

There is no doubt in my mind that young people are being sold a lie that going to university is a golden ticket to a lifetime of riches. Schools are consistently pushing HE at young people, under the pretence that your earnings with A-levels and degrees will be so much more that you won't have to worry about the collossal debt that you're building up. It was a nonsense in 2003 when I went to uni and it's an even bigger nonsense today.

Those graduates come out of the system at the other end and guess what? There isn't enough graduate jobs to go around. So your typical grad, even with a good degree, is applying for £15k entry level roles - this wasn't in the university sales brochure (my mistake - they call them 'prospectuses') , was it?

Throw in to the mix the dwindling prospect of home ownership and starting a family, it's little wonder that young people are left feeling that they have been let down. Those who aren't academically minded are made to feel that they're inferior whilst the rest find that they have spent the best part of £20k, only to find that their degree counts for nothing against candidates with decades of experience when they apply for what they were led to believe was a "graduate" opening.

£13 to £15K jobs are pretty much the norm for a 21 year old graduate now and the "degree necessary" qualification is just a default tagline on the advert for many companies, many of whom do not actually need degree educated workers but stick it on there thinking that it will filter out a couple of hundred applicants if they do.

To give two examples my daughter #1 got a position in a large law firm with her law degree a couple of years ago but after she started she was told that the degree, its mark and the status of the uni she took it at were all irrelevant to them, they were only interested in her attitude, which was good as it shows that the company were genuinely interviewing candidates and not just going through the motions and then compiling a league table of degrees.

Her sister, daughter #2 has just got a job at the same company without a degree for exactly the same reason, she interviewed well (coached by her sister) and works hard, again showing that they know what they are looking for in an interview and seem to be pretty switched on about what personality they are looking and the view that they will teach you the rest - which is how it should be but too often is not.

They are both earning salaries that, like for like and with inflation taken into account, I would have dreamed of when I was their age.

Mind you, that isn't saying much



When I started work at 16 in 1975 my annual salary was less than their nett monthly pay, by the time I was 21 the company had added free use of a company van to my stipend and a few more quid and they thought that was over generous



When I left that company ten years later my wage was £140 a week and a company car (they always sold the company car as a big deal, it was a fekkin Ford Escort Pop), and I left to join my dads company where my pay packet was the enormous amount of £80 a week and a second hand Talbot Solara, topped up by whatever cash fiddles he had going that week

The first part, I'm sorry to say, sounds oddly familiar.

That said, we are better than most companies in that regard. Our recruitment manager has a wealth of experience as a head hunter and can see past the degree to pick up on the more intangible things like you describe - attitude, work ethic, willingness, etc. Whilst we don't explicitly ask for degrees for entry level roles, it's probably fair to say that our recruitment is geared more towards grads (we'd sooner advertise through the university than JC+). Invariably, grads do lose some faith in the system when the best we can offer their experience level is a £15k entry level role.

I worked bloody hard to get a good degree and I've got a CV that demonstrates that I'm a grafter, but there's no denying that there is an element of fortune behind where I am today. The company I work for today was a name I had never heard of before and an industry that I barely knew existed. It was complete chance that I landed on the website of a company that would go on to be a Sunday Times Tech Track 100 firm and expand from 20 to 120 staff in the time I have been here.

(I'll stop the shameful plugging now

)

Has Collioure still got that public toilet near the beach, where they sell you a couple of pieces of toilet paper as you go in to find the toilet is just a hole in the ground? It is though, like most of the South of France, a staggeringly beautiful place.

Higher education is a striking example of how the ideas of "nobody fails" added to "everybody needs further education" changed the face of HE in this country.

Back in the day, the first dividing line was the infamous 11+, the results of which would broadly speaking route you either to grammar school or a secondary comprehensive. And you would thus (again in general terms) be aiming for either GCEs or else CSEs.

From secondary school, the brightest kids would go to university, those less gifted would go to polytechnic, or college.

Of course we all know what happened to 11+, and the exam system was changed so that pretty much everyone who makes any effort passes, but the drawback is that the qualifications are rendered much less meaningful as there are so many more of them about.

Then it was decided by someone that polys etc were viewed as inferior, so we had a phase of all of them being rebranded as universities.

Back in the day, kids who passed their exams and went to uni would generally qualify for a grant. But as the numbers of kids going to "university" expanded exponentially, the government decided that all students would instead have to now pay for their own course.

Similarly, many institutions (in a similar way to examination boards, and of course schools) completely changed the way they work as teaching kids was no longer your main priority, it was now box ticking, record-keeping, hoop-jumping and beauty parading. I make an analogy with major companies and their "customer care". In general, they actually don't give a flying fart about customer care, you can't get through, you can't even find a number or if you do get past endless menus and queues, you can't speak to a human except to a first-line script reader in a call centre. But that's not important. What is important is that that company will have been voted the best customer experience by 99%, it will have numerous gold stars and platinum rankings, and will have a million stats to prove how ell they do. It will greatly surpass all KPIs. Service may be utter crap, but they can prove it's great. Statistics will demonstrate whatever you want, and spin-doctors will present everything as a major triumph.

In similar ways, OFSTED and the rest have generated a complete new level of administration, with many parallels to managers in the NHS (who also prove everything is fantastic). The emphasis is on smoke and mirrors, not on reality, and the processes of accreditation drain resources and deflect those within the institutions from what they actually are supposed to be doing.

Add to teh mix people running the show, such as the present incumbent, the moron Gove, changing everything at least twice a year, and it is no surprise that we are now lumbered with a system which is unfit for purpose. Somewhere along the way, everybody gradually lost sight of what it was we were actually trying to achieve, which is NOT to force everybody through the machine, but to produce well-educated, well-rounded individuals, which in many cases (for example) would be more appropriately done by leaving school at 16 and going straight into a job they want to do, and like, and suit.

My issues with HE include that under the present system, in many cases, the courses and degrees are of little use; the unfortunate students (in England, anyway) have little choice but to rack up a monster debt; and that the major concern of too many institutions is the statistics they churn out rather than their graduates. It is no surprise that the worth of many of their qualifications has been gradually and substantially devalued.

Chuck into the mix the fact that back in the day every employer was expected to continue with your education in the form of in-job-training, often involving industry approved training courses and certification PAID FOR BY THE EMPLOYER.

So you did a period of a number of years as a trainee or even as an indentured apprentice, which for those too young to remember means that the employer could not get rid of you by sacking or other excuses unless the business failed in which case your trade or professional association would be obliged to find you another placement - nett result is that young people up to the age of 21 need not miss out on employment or recognised qualifications just because they did not choose an academic route.


The situation now ?

Have a look around any job offer for an 18 to 21 year old and see if it mentions whether the employer will continue to fund your education.

When did you last visit?

There's one right next to the beach at Port d'Avall that we use, which is three cubicles with squats inside, plus one 'disabled' cubicle with a conventional toilet, which I tend to use – I've never seen anyone flogging bog roll, but I always take my own. All these are proper fittings – even the squats – and are washed down thoroughly (with hose) at least three times a day, so maybe it's improved. So basic, but essentially clean. I haven't used the ones for years that are up steps and in the little side bit of the church near Boramar beach.

I only really discovered, this summer, that it's an incredibly new, in terms of serious tourist trade. Just 30 years ago, there were still fishing boats on the beach and the old women in black lined up by the wall. It was one of the poorest regions in the country, but it's been an astonishing turnaround – specifically for Collioure – since then. Thirty years ago, there were no galleries, for instance.

And then there are things like the vineyards above the village: although those hills were first planted with vines something like 3,000 years ago, many had been allowed to get into a state of disrepair. There's a cooperative in the village making good wines already, and slowly reclaiming and rebuilding the terraces, which with the increasing opportunities to market the regional wines beyond Roussillon is obviously a rather good idea.

But you're absolutely right about it being staggering beautiful.

We've commented on plenty of this previously, and in addition to what you've rightly highlighted, you can add businesses whinging about school leavers not being trained in, say, customer relations, as has happened in recent years.

Quick history lesson, but very relevant to that comment:

When I left school (pre thatcher!), only 7% of the population went on to get a degree - I'm one of the 93% .... Now I find myself out of work, and despite 30+ years experience in the water/wastewater sector, I can't get an interview because I can't get past the HR robots who insist you must have a degree or the application goes directly in the bin.

I then get the flip side from neighbours/friends kids who have degrees in subjects totally unrelated to engineering who are granted interviews for the very same posts, only to be rejected because, you've guessed it, they haven't got any relevant experience.

To say the country's gone mad is an understatement.

edit : back to thread topic - anyone slags off this government for zero hours contracts has been sleeping. They've been rife throughout engineering sector for well over a decade - when that lovely "butter wouldn't melt" President Blair was in office! Did he care? Too busy trying to get £1m notes into a salary designed to hold £100k....

I first noticed it back in the early 1990s, when looking for jobs I was more than capable of doing, but seeing a massive expansion in jobs saying they were for graduates.



I'm not sure anyone here would suggest they were a new phenomenon – simply one that is rapidly expanding.

And there are few (if any) here who would be likely to appear ardent supporters of Blair. In terms of general ideology, his government continued the work of its two predecessors, continuing with privatisation and deregulation, good neo-liberal that he is.

I totally sympathise with you, but I might be stating the obvious here - do you ever speak to the person who is handling the application or perhaps write to the person who would potentially be your boss but who may not even be aware that he is being fed low grade candidates because of his company's ridiculous criteria ?

Forgive me if I'm barking up the wrong tree but fortunately I've never had to apply for a job in those circumstances, but if I did I'd be in exactly the same situation as you, forty years of work experience, accomplished in electrical and comms installations, conversant with SQL and database applications, but with absolutely no qualifications whatsoever apart from the ability to swim 25 yards at 11 years of age without putting my feet on the bottom.




I have a friend who is a QS in civil engineering and he too has been employed by the same contractor (a government department) on the same job and even mostly on the same site, but is virtually a sub-contractor in all but name, no hours, no holiday or sick pay - and he's been there for at least ten years to my knowledge.

Shagability if their female?
Or is that just shallow old me?

A wine bar I used to frequent once advertised for a "witty and urbane bar person". I wondered what wittyand urbane meant until I saw the successful candidate: "blonde with big tits"

MY mate who had the Commercial for many years would not employ dogs.
I am eternally grateful as I managed to get a piece of several of them.

What were these industries? What has happened to them?

Most big companies in the engineering sector (the little ones with less than 20 employees have been forced out by legislation) now don't even handle their own recruitment these days, instead appointing outside agencies who liaise with corporate HR depts. Contacting the manager who will be your boss, which I always try to do as a matter of courtesy, has become futile.

One incident sums it up (and is sadly not an isolated one): I was head of a network analysis dept for 3 years at a water utility 12 yrs ago. I always hit/exceeded targets etc. During those 3 years, I trained up an engineering graduate to take over the post so I could move on, and moved to a job at an outside consultancy. Last year I applied for a job at that utility co. which 'skill matched' my CV - It turned out to be as an assistant to the bloke I had trained up, so he could finally move up the ladder! ..... Even with his help I couldn't get past the HR gestapo who kept insisting "The post requires a degree qualification" ..... No it doesn't !!! He was eventually given the choice of a Polish engineering graduate who spoke little English so couldn't write reports (essential to the job), a history grad, and someone with a maths degree, none of whom have any experience in the water/wastewater industry.

And people wonder why there's hosepipe bans & flooding in the same areas .... Global warming, my ar5e.

How old are you, just so I know what your level of knowledge of British industry is/has been these past 40 years ?

The industries I speak of are still around by the way.

Again you have my sympathy.

I deal with many of the biggest recruitment company's in the country as clients, I see the "account managers" most days and frankly your tale does not surprise me for how can a person organise recruitment for a technical post when they had never heard of the trade until five minutes ago, you might as well put me in charge of recruiting for your job



Although they keep me in work I do despair sometimes at the number of large engineering companies that they have as clients and when I go to those sites I find that the majority of staff are agency staff, its like there is no responsibilty within technical and engineering any more to find, train and retain a workforce, not when you can just get a body to fill a space with one phone call.

That's a f'kin joke and simply highlights the flaws in the way many companies are now conducting their recruitment process.