Thanks Stu, on the whole I agree with your synopsis. What’s your take on having 18 players out of contract at the end of next season? There appears to have been some inept planning. The biggest concern should be Knowles and Lees being able to speak to rival clubs.

Stu's assessment of Saints is pretty much my own view although I will add that I've seen some Saints fans saying "if we have better luck with injuries" and similar and I genuinely don't think that's a possibility. Although there's always an element of luck there's a law of diminishing returns when you (re)sign injury prone players. Saints have too many of those. I see similar to last year, or maybe a touch better, on the injury front but not enough to make a significant difference.

For Wigan I think we'll go well again but unlikely to match last year's heroics simply because we'll be competing on all fronts again. We did well to get our spine (O'Neil excepted) back in harness when it mattered and I don't think that's something that you can count on most years. Vegas will have an effect too. I'll go for another trophy and there or thereabouts in the others. That said, I wouldn't put it past this lot to raise their game again.

Like most Wigan fans I'm looking forward to the season again and that in itself is something to be happy about.

i think the good thing about Wigan, despite the success last year, is that we will still have some young hungry players who perhaps werent part of that (yes they were squad members, but maybe didnt play as much as they wanted). So the likes of Hill, Walters, Farrimond and O'Neill (through injury) should all be keen to show what they can do and win medals, and i think that'll keep pushing us through

as most say, i cant see another clean sweep, but we'll be there or there abouts when it matters

Agree about the injuries. The relentless, physical way of playing for 3 years under Woolf is starting to show with some players. They are older and wear and tear is showing. If anything they are likely to pick up more injuries not less.

We need to start providing some energy with youth and it will be really interesting to see how Briers works with the likes of Robertson and Whitby. I'm hoping Stephens gets more game time as he was bending the line when he did play last season and has an offload on him. He needs more minutes and for his fitness too.

As for the number of players out of contract at the same time, it's exceptionally poor planning and a lack of vision. I can't understand how that's happened when for years we've been really smart with our retention and more often than not our better players have stayed.

That said there is a large number of that 18 who will leave the club and not many who I would want to keep. Knowles and Lees are the crown jewels in the pack and I'm hoping we keep both. I do have a feeling though that Lees will go to the NRL and I don't blame him. Knowles should be the next captain and money thrown at him. We are a different team with and without him. Now that he is finally over the groin injury he has been carrying for over a year, you can see how important he is.

They have recruited really smartly and have been great with succession planning. There's no doubt they are set for a successful period.

I just hope elements of the fanbase don't get too entitled/silly and expect us to win the lot again and then bag the players and coaching staff when it doesn't happen. Only the Challenge Cup was reasonably comfortable to win last year for us and everything else needed some big moments going our way to get them done.

We look extremely strong again and the squad is that young it's still developing in many areas but nothing is a given and other sides are strengthening. They will obviously aim to win everything on offer again and I'm confident of some more success but we'll see how we go. The challenges of backing up an unbelievable 2024 and Vegas will make things tricky. If we win another challenge cup or Grand Final, that would be another superb season.

Stephens looks the real deal for sure but I haven't seen someone to build your pack around as yet. His fitness is lacking at the moment and there are props who have that throughout their career. Will he get there with his fitness or is he more of a Mago impact type? Robertson is also an exceptional talent but the caveat there is too much is being expected of him from the fan base. He needs time and having seen some of the comments from your fans I can only hope he gets it. Together with Farrimond they could form an international pairing down the line if given the right development.

The new coaches will add something if the tools they have to work with are available. I'm not convinced they will have though as I've said previously. We'll see.

Lees and Knowles are interesting. I agree that Lees may take the opportunity to try his hand down under. Which leaves Knowles who could present a challenge. He's undoubtedly important to Saints but in the way Ellis has become for us. He's important but he isn't a French or a Smith if you see what I mean. On the one hand you need to keep him but on the other I suspect it will take marquee money to do so. Which means one less spot for a world class half or x factor game breaker (or preferably both as we have in French). Even though you have to go all out to retain him, particularly with all those players off contract, it could, ironically, prove to be a millstone when it comes to rebuilding the squad.

It does look like they've made some good decisions this last 18 months or so, with some good long term contracts handed out providing an element of stability, and succession planning

your comment to one of the other posters is quite telling too re Saints current position re contracts and recent retentions etc. i've said a few times Wigan (going back to 90's / 00s) used to get it right virtually all the time letting the likes of Hanley, Offiah, Gregory etc go at the right time, and having replacements coming through or signed and ready to take that 1st team shirt

Saints up until the last couple of years have had that knack too, and it was a frustration of some of our fans when we were seemingly keeping players on too long, but it seems that the clubs have flipped positions and we are now getting it right, whilst saints are making some strange decisions re letting players go on for a season or 2 too long

Finishing top 3 years on the trot would be a superb achievement especially with everyone gunning for us

Again, hard to disagree with anything you have said there. I'm hoping Stephens gains some fitness as he is full time now and has been for over a year so there are no excuses in that he is still studying etc. His Mum posts on RedVee and says he has been very dilligent pre-season in relation to training, diet etc so we will see.

I think signing Sailor will mean that Robertson's game time will be limited which is the best thing for him at this stage. He can get minutes across the backline in different positions. Last season, he played way more than envisaged and naturally as a young player he made mistakes. Obviously an injury to Welsby or Sailor changes that but if both stay fit then he won't play 1 or 6 much in my opinion.

I also understand exactly what you mean about Knowles. It's going to be very interesting to see what happens with his contract.

More than anything, that would probably be the biggest achievement, simply because it's the hardest to win, especially from a POV of motivation. You gave to consistently get yourself up for going winning to Cas, Wakey, Salford, Hull etc and winning games and we're not always great at that. I'd take either of the other two over it but it probably would be the most impressive achievement in 2025 if we won the LLS.

The thing that struck me about Robertson was how positively he reacted when he did make mistakes. It never seemed to drive him into his shell, and I get the impression his mental attitude is great, so i have high hopes for him as a future international. But I agree, a sensible amount of game time for his development will be crucial.

Regarding Knowles, I think the difference in the team's performance when he was available and when he was out was really noticeable, so I can see why Wellens would do everything he can to keep him. Lees may be harder to keep and would be a loss, as I rate him very highly as well, but I think he is more replaceable. He's a real coaches' player. I can recall lots of fans questioning how much he really brings, but you can see that Wellens and Wane both really rate him. He's just really consistent and has a fantastic engine.

This will be a huge season for Wellens, but I still think he can make a success of things. I'm not sure what represents a minimum acceptable season for Saints this year? Do they have to win a trophy, or would making a final playing better rugby and showing progress be enough? Not sure. I don't personally see them as challenging for the absolute top this coming year, but equally, I don't see them doing a Leeds and dropping out of the play-offs altogether. As with almost everyone, a lot will depend on fitness and form of key players and new signings.

The coaching situation needs sorting. Briers has a year longer on his contract than Wellens. Is that so if Wellens starts badly next season, Briers steps in? Who knows.

The big issue though is the Recruitment for 2026. There could be a lot of players leaving in 2025 and a lot of cap space available. Hurrell, Paasi, Mbye, Sironen maybe Bell. Then there's the likes of Davies, Ritson, Bennison. That's not even the worst case scenario of Lees or Knowles leaving. Or both.

However the coach for 2026 will want input and if its not Wellens then they will need to know who it is early in 2025. If it is Wellens again then they are putting faith in him but again it may only be another 1 year deal depending how we go this season. If they offer him 2 or 3 years and we flop spectacularly then we are in dire straits.

The decision as to who the coach is for 2026 needs to be a good one.

I think Saints will finish in the top 4 but there are clearly a lot of question marks going forward. A big one is the future of Paul Wellens but ultimately the stars of the squad have aged and it will take time to replace them. Roby, LMS and Makinson have all gone whilst Lomax, Walmsley, Paasi and Hurrell are approaching the end. Clark, Sironen, Percival, Batchelor and Bell all in their 30s. If Lees and/or Knowles go as well it would be a nightmare. There are some promising players coming through but likely 2-3 years away from potentially being able to lead a title winning squad.

Other concerns are the lack of a specialist kicker and how injury prone the squad has been over the last couple of years.

Tristan Sailor has to be a success for them and I actually hope that he is one - Super League needs more stars and he definitely seems to have some X factor.

On a side note it's interesting to see how all of the big stars are back training at the majority of SL clubs but it looks like ours will only be back after Christmas. Completely understandable given the number of games we played but I think it also shows a level of trust in the squad to keep themselves fit outside of the club. Giving the likes of French and Field some extra time back home has definitely been a smart strategy.

Thinking of recruiting players is pretty scary stuff at the minute and gets scarier by the year. The quality just isn't coming over from the NRL anymore and as it gets bigger, the more we're going to be left with the likes of Waqa Blake. You'll get the odd diamond, who is on the edge of the NRL coming in but it seems to becoming the case now where imports with any sort of profile are older than we've ever seen (JWH and Rapana) , are unknown or there isn't much about them. I look at Saints signing Sironen 3 years ago and that signing won't happen anymore IMO. He'd played 130 NRL games, County Origin etc and there will be enough teams in the comp to offer that profile of player a good deal. You look to lesser profile players like Ellis and Field, who were fringe NRL players and even they will be tough to get and if you do, it may just be for a year or so (if they do well) before they head back.

Saints and Wigan with their academies will be in the best place to ride that but you wouldn't want to be having to do too much recruitment each year.

Saints need to retain Knowles and Lees because finding federation trained players will no be easy however, they will need to pay them handsomely and that will restrict what can be spent elsewhere.

The biggest problem Saints seem to have for me is they seem to have put all their eggs in this 'golden generation' basket but there is only 2 of them any good in Stephens and Robertson. That's normal, a full crop never makes it. It is usually one or two. So these old players they are expecting to be transitioned out will make them even weaker. They have poor recruitment and a short sighted future plan from Mike Rush. I would be worried if i was a Saints fan................... Which thank god i am not

[quote="Cherry_Warrior":kcspyzz6]The biggest problem Saints seem to have for me is they seem to have put all their eggs in this 'golden generation' basket but there is only 2 of them any good in Stephens and Robertson. That's normal, a full crop never makes it. It is usually one or two. So these old players they are expecting to be transitioned out will make them even weaker. They have poor recruitment and a short sighted future plan from Mike Rush. I would be worried if i was a Saints fan................... Which thank god i am not [/quote:kcspyzz6] I think that's a bit unfair. Last year was a poor environment for any young lads to thrive. With injuries and some hammerings, confidence was low and there weren't enough experienced heads around any of the younger lads to support. Whitby is highly rated but made his debut at home to HKR when they absolutely smashed us and Wellens (not for the first time) got his selections horribly wrong. Vaughan is another who was Lancashire and England Academy captain but struggled at times especially when partnered with Ritson. He needs some size on him and there is still a question mark over whether or not he will play centre or second row. Dagnall is another who whilst he hasn't had his chance yet, looks very promising and has done well for Lancashire and England Academy. I think Rush was wrong with his comments as he gave the impression that we had a Class of 92 and then of course we struggled badly last season. Our recruitment has been poor the last couple of seasons admittedly but over the last 6-8 years we have recruited really well. Overseas signings like Sironen, Matautia, Coote and Paasi have been some of our best and then we got some gems like Batchelor and Bentley from the Championship- (Bentley at Saints was good as has Batchelor bar last season) Even before that we bought Walmsley from the Championship. James Bell has been another good signing so I think more often than not we have got it right. That said we have got it badly wrong for this season with not signing one if not two centres and at least another prop and it looks like McManus has misled us by saying we always spend up to the cap as it looks like Matautia isn't being replaced. Sadly (for us) it looks as though financially we just haven't got the money at the moment. The Covid loans are really hurting us which has affected recruitment

[quote="Stu M":vjvsbuer]I think that's a bit unfair. Last year was a poor environment for any young lads to thrive. With injuries and some hammerings, confidence was low and there weren't enough experienced heads around any of the younger lads to support. Whitby is highly rated but made his debut at home to HKR when they absolutely smashed us and Wellens (not for the first time) got his selections horribly wrong. Vaughan is another who was Lancashire and England Academy captain but struggled at times especially when partnered with Ritson. He needs some size on him and there is still a question mark over whether or not he will play centre or second row. Dagnall is another who whilst he hasn't had his chance yet, looks very promising and has done well for Lancashire and England Academy. I think Rush was wrong with his comments as he gave the impression that we had a Class of 92 and then of course we struggled badly last season. Our recruitment has been poor the last couple of seasons admittedly but over the last 6-8 years we have recruited really well. Overseas signings like Sironen, Matautia, Coote and Paasi have been some of our best and then we got some gems like Batchelor and Bentley from the Championship- (Bentley at Saints was good as has Batchelor bar last season) Even before that we bought Walmsley from the Championship. James Bell has been another good signing so I think more often than not we have got it right. That said we have got it badly wrong for this season with not signing one if not two centres and at least another prop and it looks like McManus has misled us by saying we always spend up to the cap as it looks like Matautia isn't being replaced. Sadly (for us) it looks as though financially we just haven't got the money at the moment. The Covid loans are really hurting us which has affected recruitment[/quote:vjvsbuer] I think the financial situation should be concerning for Saints. I am not signed up to the golden generation though and, even if they all show promise this season I think Saints will come up short. Robertson and Stephens have shown promise but the others have not been tested at SL level. With a plethora of players off contract there looks like there will be a high turnover of players unless the seasoned pros can turn around their form from last season, the problem is where are their replacements going to come from? In addition, failure to secure Lees and Knowles would leave a gaping hole in the pack and the Welsby to the NRL should be of concern. I suppose time will tell.

Didn't want to start a new thread for this so thought I would put it on here.. I've mentioned before on here that I am a Utd fan and coming out of the ground last night, what struck me was how normal fans were. No- one was sulking or moody, it was just people chatting normally, laughing, talking about plans for New Year. The result was expected (or at least not a shock) This is the situation Utd are now in and whilst I don't for one minute think we will be relegated, we are in the mix and Amorim was right to discuss it. This got me thinking about Wigan... In the 2006 season ( I think it was) when you were down at the bottom, how did it change you as fans? Obviously Wigan like Utd are a huge club and it seems unthinkable but I know some Wigan fans that said they enjoyed that season more than most because the fans really got behind the team and every game felt like a Final. Clearly you wouldn't swap that season for anything before or after but do you think that the shock had a positive impact on the club?

Apart from last year, 2006 was probably my favourite from the SL era. The way the team and fans bonded in common cause was like nothing I'd seen before or since (up until the advent of Matt Peet who's managed to achieve a similar feeling whilst also winning!) I'm not sure I can claim it had too many positives going forward although crowds did rise during that season. Good as it was, I'd always choose winning everything, obviously, but it was a great season in it's own way.

[quote="Stu M":1gyk2mko]Didn't want to start a new thread for this so thought I would put it on here.. I've mentioned before on here that I am a Utd fan and coming out of the ground last night, what struck me was how normal fans were. No- one was sulking or moody, it was just people chatting normally, laughing, talking about plans for New Year. The result was expected (or at least not a shock) This is the situation Utd are now in and whilst I don't for one minute think we will be relegated, we are in the mix and Amorim was right to discuss it. This got me thinking about Wigan... In the 2006 season ( I think it was) when you were down at the bottom, how did it change you as fans? Obviously Wigan like Utd are a huge club and it seems unthinkable but I know some Wigan fans that said they enjoyed that season more than most because the fans really got behind the team and every game felt like a Final. Clearly you wouldn't swap that season for anything before or after but do you think that the shock had a positive impact on the club?[/quote:1gyk2mko] The first half of that season was absolutely awful, we'd let a very good team either get too long in the tooth or they'd gone off to RU, add on we'd lost Central Park and there was a general malaise around the club. We can't give Bran Noble enough credit for what he did, the atmosphere did change and it really was a fantastic turn around in the second half of the season. Looking back I think it's fair to say that season caused a total reset at the club and we're reaping the benefits now with how they've re-engaged with the town. Next season will be a challenge, we've got a massive target on our backs now but I think we've got the squad to be right up there again, getting through that six or seven weeks without French/Field relatively unscathed last season should give them the confidence to know they can handle a bit of adversity.

I think it gave us the shock we needed to make some positive decisions in better recruitment and overall direction of the club and it fired up the fanbase which was tending more towards apathy. I think we would have continued to stumble along for quite a number of years if we hadn't had that dip. The big difference between Wigan and Man U is that Man U have no soul left at the club. Liverpool and Arsenal still have it, they know what the club stands for and it's place in the community, what it means to the fans. Wigan RL live and breath it everyday from top to bottom thanks to Radders, Peet, Lenegan and now Mike Danson. The partial buyout by Jim Ratcliffe at Man U has made things even worse, cutting contributions to player welfare charity is another sign of the petty, short term vision that shows he has no understanding what binds a club to its fanbase. They are on a downward spiral with no sign of any plan to get them out of it and judging by the decisions made to date haven't got the management that understands how to do it.

[quote="Big Steve":2g3tuopf]I think it gave us the shock we needed to make some positive decisions in better recruitment and overall direction of the club and it fired up the fanbase which was tending more towards apathy. I think we would have continued to stumble along for quite a number of years if we hadn't had that dip. The big difference between Wigan and Man U is that Man U have no soul left at the club. Liverpool and Arsenal still have it, they know what the club stands for and it's place in the community, what it means to the fans. Wigan RL live and breath it everyday from top to bottom thanks to Radders, Peet, Lenegan and now Mike Danson. The partial buyout by Jim Ratcliffe at Man U has made things even worse, cutting contributions to player welfare charity is another sign of the petty, short term vision that shows he has no understanding what binds a club to its fanbase. They are on a downward spiral with no sign of any plan to get them out of it and judging by the decisions made to date haven't got the management that understands how to do it.[/quote:2g3tuopf] they had a UTD fan on Sky Sports news yesterday , i think he was from one of the fanzines and he echoed what you are saying about decision to cut costs have been at the expense of the clubs standing in the community, when the ownership changed I thought the only change would be mores sports science based with ideas taken from the Ineos cycling team. It now seems more about boosting share holder benefits

[quote="Stu M":13ij38rc]Didn't want to start a new thread for this so thought I would put it on here.. I've mentioned before on here that I am a Utd fan and coming out of the ground last night, what struck me was how normal fans were. No- one was sulking or moody, it was just people chatting normally, laughing, talking about plans for New Year. The result was expected (or at least not a shock) This is the situation Utd are now in and whilst I don't for one minute think we will be relegated, we are in the mix and Amorim was right to discuss it. This got me thinking about Wigan... In the 2006 season ( I think it was) when you were down at the bottom, how did it change you as fans? Obviously Wigan like Utd are a huge club and it seems unthinkable but I know some Wigan fans that said they enjoyed that season more than most because the fans really got behind the team and every game felt like a Final. Clearly you wouldn't swap that season for anything before or after but do you think that the shock had a positive impact on the club?[/quote:13ij38rc] I would swap it for 1980