Meeither mate but hes on about back rowers compared to Bateman so surely he means Joel

I thought Joel was great before his departure to union. For me his all round game was much better than Bateman.
I did hesitate before naming Isa but thought what does Bateman offer what Isa cannot do? Both fit, athletic and committed whilst both offer limited attacking options. That’s not criticism of either player but for me is a summary of both players abilities.

John Bateman was right up there IMO during his first spell for us. I wouldn’t have him above Betts, Hock or Liam Farrell but I would put him ahead of anyone else (in Superleague) in terms of his overall contribution. You could make a case for guys like Hoffman and Fletcher being better but they were only here for a short spell. I’d personally leave Andy Farrell out of it, with him being used usually at 13 and then that spell at prop.

Still doesn’t change my mind that we’ve had his best days now and we should (and will) stay well clear.

Fair enough mate. Joel was a very good player.

The Mikey Lewis rumour was from a fake Twitter account claiming to be Shaw, nothing in it at all I don’t think and where would he fit in?

Yeah, it’s been a blessing in disguise.

Joel remains the single best example I can name of the detrimental impact a spell in Union can have on a quality RL player, and it's a high bar given what happened to Henry Paul and Iestyn Harris.

Fans seem to only remember a certain try by Joel, talk about Wigan tinted spectacles, the Anus of Wigan was mediocre at best and only had a career at Wigan to keep little Sammy sweet

Out of all the players Michael Maguire had an impact on in 2010, I think Joel was the biggest turnaround. He went from being a decent player before that, to being absolutely outstanding in 2010 and 2011. I remember when he came back for that 2010 season being amazed by the change is his body shape. He wasn't over weight or unfit prior to that season but he came back and looked like he'd put a load of muscle on and was fitter, stronger, faster etc than previously. The Union spell put a pin in his progress. It's why I wouldn't have him above somebody like Bateman. I think he had 2 excellent years as a Wigan player and either side he was just a decent player.

I could go with that in his early years and his second spell but 2010 and 2011 he was like a totally different player. His form in 2010 in particular was probably one of the best seasons I've seen a Wigan back rower have. I've just had a look at his appearances/trys stats from that season to jog my memory and he got 17 in 34 games. I'd agree though that it certainly wasn't his usual standard throughout his career.

Talk on the Wire forum about Bateman. May be nothing in it as I would expect Hull to try and outbid anyone but will be interesting to see how he goes back in SL

I think it'd be churlish to deny he'd improve most SL sides.

I dont think he'd improve us, Wire or Saints

Couldn't help but think of the implications of George Williams choosing Warrington over Wigan in 2021. I remember him taunting the Wigan fans a little at the Magic weekend that year (all in good fun btw) and you couldn't help but wonder whether Wigan would live to regret that one.

As it has turned out so far Williams has watched Wigan win five trophies and won nothing thus far with Warrington. With hindsight we now know we wouldn't have been able to put together the Field, French and Smith triangle and we may not have been able to keep them all at the club anyhow.

Would Wigan have had the same success had Williams signed? Is he regretting that decision now?

Re yesterday I thought he was generally poor - lost count of the amount of times Miski bounced off him to surge up field, Field drew him in easily for the Farrell try and he was generally a bit of a headless chicken in attack.

Hindsight is a wondferful thing. I remember the uproar when he signed for Warrington. Almost like "How could he do that???"

Looking back though, I am 100% glad we didnt re-sign him as we are in a much better position and i am pretty confident he will win very little @ Warrington

A lot of Wigan people were very disappointed in George after his defection to Warrington, but the truth is that he's quite a hot and cold player. For some reason, he's held in very high esteem by almost the entire British game, yet I've not seen too many star turns from him. On his day, he can be very good. On others, like yesterday, he can be almost anonymous. I genuinely don't think we've really missed him, especially given the way Harry Smith has developed.

I think there's some truth in this, but then again Smith (who I rate enormously) has been playing behind a dominant pack for the most part, something which Williams didn't always have when he was here and something he didn't have at Wembley. That said, the last tackle players were awful so both he and Drinkwater need to take responsibility for that.

He's still a very, very productive player, even on the days when he doesn't take the game by the scruff of the neck. I think you're right that we haven't really missed him because French and Smith have been so great as a partnership, but I think Williams is the one player in the division who you could at least make a case for getting into our best team just now at 6 or 7.

I've got no argument with that overall. But my memories of him at Wigan are equal parts admiration and frustration. He seemed to make an artform of the Hail Mary kick. It was nearly always his first option, and while the one in every four or five that hit paydirt would look amazing, the rest were often poor ends to sets. I remember a Test match commentator - Ton Rea? - criticising him for this very same thing. I also remember thinking that George had totally disappeared in games where we were having it tough. I certainly don't recall any performances for Wigan that were on a par with those we saw at Canberra, which to me indicates an attitude issue.

Would he get in the current Wigan side? Yes, because I think he'd be aware that he'd need to raise his game, and when he does that, he is genuinely very good. But I still don't really understand the reputation he enjoys.

At Warrington I think he is having to do a bit of everything because the halves lack defined roles.

Wigan have 2 halves with an identity and clear job roles.

Smith is the organiser, French in the strike runner/floating partner.

I think if you give Williams either of those roles in isolation his overall impact improves because I believe he can do both very well, but not both at the same time.

At the Raiders he seemed to be asked to play mainly the role of the strike half and he was very good on that capacity, probably played his best rugby.

At Wire I think his impact is being diluted.

I agree. I also think that Smith/Williams would be perfect for England (if and when they ever play a meaningful Test match again)

This isn’t a bitter post rewriting history because I said it when he was with when we’d go in to big finals and that is that Williams was due a final that he made his and made a huge contribution in. It never came for us and it didn’t come on Saturday either. He’s the polar opposite of somebody like Danny Maguire during his playing career, who produced moments all season but had quiet spells as well but when a final came, it was top class performance after top class performance. Williams doesn’t seem to have the character to really grip big games. In his defence Wire were poor on Saturday, so it’s not easy.

Seems like there are plenty of excuses being thrown the way of old Georgie boy. I'm not sure why he gets so much leeway?

At what point, does some of it actually fall on his shoulders or be within his remit to change/influence? He's been at Wire for three years now and hasn't done anything of note. In fact they almost got relegated in 2022.

People can point to the coach, but Wire have a good side & he's the captain and highest paid player in the league too. They have to do better as a side and he needs to be leading that.

Think people are being harsh on Williams. Had he and French swapped sides on Saturday wed have had the same result with Williams probably taking the Lance Todd. His forwards were beaten all ends up and its impossible to dominate a final in that outcome.

2 years ago when our pack wasnt dominating games Harry Smith was getting absolutely destroyed (by some of our fans not just opposition) it's a tough job playing in the halves behind a beaten pack

With Sam Burgess in charge I'm sure his recruitment will be to make his pack more of a force. They were totally bossed on Saturday which reflected on the whole team's performance as Wigan put them under pressure from five minutes into the game.

Should he recruit bigger and better players and his pack match up then George Williams will have a more open field in which to operate. SB and his coaching staff will be on it right now I'll bet. No one knows better then SB the importance of a dominant pack in affecting the result of a rugby game.

David Armstrong is a hell of a signing for Leigh.