just had a quick check, rileys stats at least as good as wellens if not slightly better, not bad for 1st run out at fb against the mighty sts

Not really if's are they. A true reflection of the game is seen in us outscoring you by 6 tries to 2. You can try to get some shred of comfort that the overall scoreline was closer but the fact is over the whole game we were a fair bit better.

I thought we showed a lot of positives for the first 50, but there were still plenty of weaknesses during that period. Our attack was still very conservative, and our defence looked very shaky when put under pressure. Fortunately, Saints attack also looked shaky. The dominance during the first 50 really should have seen the game killed. Saints were dominant for half an hour and got 6 tries in that period. That is the level we should be aiming for, not being happy that we got within 4 tries of them.

There undoubtedly were positives to be taken, but I just can't accept that we were very good or excellent for large parts of this game.

Very Accurate Post - My onely real criticisms are Penny's defensive positioning and King's lack of assistance despite being an "international class" centre.

Yet to add to Steve51's points, after watching the game again, In the 1st Half our kicking game was very solid yet the last 30 minutes our kicking did nothing to gain field position, often gifting Wellens a free run. You don't often notice the importance of general play kicking but it seemed to spring out on Friday.

this is for Gardners Real try....not the "foot in touch try" I appreciate praising Penny for being in a position to force Gardner to put a foot in touch isnt the done thing but kin ell awarding a "try" that wasnt just because its on Pennys wing is nuts....

anyway back on defence.....when this happens for Gardners actual try Where would people like Kevin Penny to be.....??

There is only one person that counts, and he wanted Penny sat on his backside on the bench! Hung out to dry by his centre, his coach and half his clubs fans!

It isn't just King out of position on this picture. You should send that picture in to Jimmy Lowes.

It's like last season; Penny os left isolated because the defence isn't sliding.

Shocking isn't it? But not unusual. If you look at our defensive line any time the direction of play is changed, that happens. We are awful at reacting quickly.

It begs the greater question; why?

Fixation of the ball carrier? Lack of confidence with the inside defence? Leave Penny to be hung out to dry?

It doesn't seem to matter who the individuals are either.

Very good picture, is a prime example of what many have spoken about. That King to easily feels the need to push up and push in, leaving penny very exposed.

Is it not a case of 3rd in from the wing miss reading the play and getting sucked in by the dummy runner. King has to pick the actual ball receiver up (I presume thta's the guy on the loop behind Pryce on the photo) othersie he strolls in with a finger being put on him. As King moves in Penny is left stranded two one one but thta's the life of a winger when an inside defender mis-reads the play.

Who is the 3rd man in? Briers? Should he have had confidence in the man inside him picking up the runner?


(this is all assuming I am correct in my "spot-the-ball" assumption. Can Latchford's John McGrillick(sp) confirm as I believe that he is a "spot-the-ball" expert and drops the jackpot every week whilst waiting on his ITV 7 to comme in).

His normal position would suggest so. But it doesn't look like him. Maybe it's super Mickey Higham....

Bick, that pic is a bit misleading. You need to run it on a few more seconds to where Flannery takes the ball in and our player stands him up in the tackle, Chris Flannery then spins in the tackle and off loads the ball out the back to Leon Pryce and for some unkown reason only known to himself Kevin Penny sprints in field to about in line where the ref is in your picture to try and tackle Leon Pryce.

Kevin Penny then suddenly realises that he has been caught in no mans land and slams the brakes on and turns round to try and head back to his wing but its too late the damage had been done, yes Matt King was in a poor position himself but Penny got himself into an even worse position by running in field as far as he did to try and tackle Pryce when he should have stayed put.

It was the space left by Penny that allowed Gardner to score as Matt King did actually get across from a poor position to attempt the tackle as it was King that had hold of Gardner as he lost control of the ball with Penny flying over the top late with a feeble attempt.

Anyway, it was Monaghan`s poor attempt to deal with an average kick where he made a right horlicks of it and knocked on that lead to that try, it doesn`t excuse both Penny and King though as one was poorly positioned and one went walkabout.

If you take King & Penny out of that picture, the 'grouping' on the left of the posts is ridiculious. There must be three people there, not even marking a man, just bunched. It's that, that is the problem, and has been for the last 18 months now. If they all crouched, and shouted a name who they were marking, there's be at least three of them who couldn't.

I'm not sure about that tbh JWP. Look at it closely and you can see that every defender has a man marked.

The third man in is in a very good position to make the tackle on the man with the ball. King has moved in too far.

Penny does make a mistake on this by coming in, but I suggest that if King holds his position, Penny holds his. I think Penny panics because he can see that if the ball comes out, they score as it is 2 on 1 so he goes in to cut the move off.

This try was the one just shown on B&A. If you run this through King & Penny cover the gaps, the winger passes the ball back inside & scores in Briers spot whilst he's maoning about the forward pass to the ref.

From memory, doesn't Penny tackle Gardner and he passes back inside to Gidley. Where is his oppsite number as he walks over unopposed.

Agree - and very strongly agree with the bit in bold. Briers and Louis do that side and either Briers is AWOL &/or Louis is out of the traps mashing it up and leaving King & Penny to deal with the resultant mess.



Disagree.

Don't blame Penny, blame everything that goes on inside him - as yer man up there says, it's being going on for 18 months.

Who blamed Penny?

I disagreed with JWP's point that players are not in decent positions inside of King.

On that photo at that stage, it is probably only King who is out of position, with Penny possibly dragged in a little too far because of that.

Moving on, I don't doubt that the inside players are lazy to cover etc. but on that phot, there is one Wire defender within a couple of metres of every Saints player.

You can see the man with the ball looks like he is due to step inside. There is no reason for King to come so far in and get involved. There are plenty of defenders there to cover.

Edit: One other point, Briers has only been defending on the left this year. He was working the right with Gleeson last year.

Exactly the one. As the second rower passes Briers shows his for a forward pass. King/Penny cover their marks & the ball is passed inside for Gidley to walk in as Briers realises what he's done.

for those confused with a different try just to clear up confusion this isnt the try When Penny tackles Gardner and he off loads to gidley......this is where Gardner scores in the corner very similar to the foot in touch one..

yes Rob I understand that Penny gets sucked in but the photo Highlights Matt kings poor play.....why is he going for Flannery who has just changed direction and is heading for the three bunched Wire players. it shows he has no concern for anything out wide.....it also highlights the poor defence offered by the bunch of players that should have dealt with Flannery or at the very least kept a tight defensive line.


Flannery offloads in a very poor two man tackle which is another mistake not of Penny's doing..... Penny is the first to react to the offload and yes he does come in for it. but what would you do Rob knowing Gardners already on your outside Gidleys on the outside of King if pryce throws the ball straight to Gidley as he did for the foot in touch "try" its curtains anyway.....

and Matt king also got to Gidley for the foot in touch "try" too.
getting to him means nothing where Matt king is concerned though is it Rob he struggles to make any kind of effective tackle.

I used that picture because quite simply I also believe its a Saints set move look at Pryce..... he's not changed his direction to go left like flannery.... I believe Flannery is doing a move we've all seen and used before...the second row heads back towards the goal posts dragging defenders with him, he hits the defenders with the shoulder rolls round offloads to pryce who is coming back out wide, the opposite way to our defenders pops it to gidley who gives Gardner a walk in.....

either way Penny's left in the Shino at the start of the move.

I make no apologies for sticking up for Penny. I will continue to do so until I believe he has nothing to offer Warrington Rugby League club. infact i'll have to step it up a gear while we have what appears to be a simpleton in charge of coaching the team....

Just watched that try again on Boots'N'All, and Briers is not out of position due to appealing.

King is actually 4th man in, with Anderson, Briers and Penny outside him. Anderson, King and Briers follow the ball out wide to cover with Penny, and leave the space inside.

The main problem is that they all just go for the man with the ball, meaning that Gardner just had to offload. A couple of those players should have had faith that the tackle would have been completed, and held back in case of an offload.

People are making out that Briers was out of position due to appealing the pass, and this isn;t the case, if anything, he should have held back, yet goes too far over, as did Anderson and King, when really it only needed one of them and Penny.

I was maybe rushing a tad, and didn't explain my point well. My point was that if you look at the defenders, the positions that they are in etc, body positions and whatnot, they are awful. They are just 'scattered' as oppose to getting off the line and pointing out 'who is there man', you've got a bloke on a wraparound play that King will feel he needs to go for because nobody is near enough nor seems to have tracked his run, and it's easy to see how he gets sucked in. There's two or three, who may be in a good position Dave ie, on the field, but in terms of actually being in a good position to make the tackle, they may as well not be there.

I think what happens in general is, in my terms, ie, simple mans terms, there's a problem somewhere by the posts, and every defender along somewhat plugs that gap, so your backrow goes in to cover, phew, the gap/overlap moves wider, the centre moves in to cover the backrow slot, phew, the winger covers the centres ground, phew, Gardener walks in the corner (or doesn't as Penny ahs the presence of mind to go for him) and the try is scored.

The upshot is that Penny is left all on his own, with little or no hope. If he stayed on his wing, he'd leave a massive gap, literally 15m between him & King, Gidley would walk in, and the players would look at him no doubt for not 'pulling in' as that's the structure we've adopted, he can't win.

I can't work out, how we can't work out why this is happening. Cull couldn't stop it, fine, he didn't coach defence or whatever, but how come a new broom can't stop it ? I don't get it. Why can't we come up with a new structure to stop it happening ? I'm asking the Mark_m's of this world ?