So ... why aren't you banging on about Amor being "lazy"? If anyone is seriously down on last season's performances it's Kyle.

St. Pete says he's "100% fit".

If so he's not pulling his weight. What other explanation is there?



This is ridiculous. Mose has no control over the number of minutes he plays. Players who don't put their hands up and "volunteer" don't string together fifty consecutive appearances. Period. The only person responsible for Mose's lack of game time is the coach.

If Mose were as lazy as people claim then his performances would be down in the matches where he plays for longer. But the opposite is true. Mose very often plays better when he's given more time on the pitch. We've had people in this forum CRYING OUT for him to get more game time since last season!

The other thing you seem to be forgetting is just how big Mose is. It's utter lunacy to think a guy weighing in at 20+ stones can go score-for-score on a bleep test with someone like Kyle Amor who I doubt is much over 15.5 stones. Human hearts don't differ a great deal in size and capacity. If Amor and Mose both perform the same action Mose's heart must work that bit harder. Multiply this out over a season and then calculate how much work each player is doing. Not some half-assed back-of-a-fag-packet stats estimate.



He's never been dropped once. You can't get around this fact. It's not as though Keiron is some kind of "nice guy" who prefers not to come down hard on players either. We all know those players who've crossed Keiron and paid the price. It's a pretty long list. A list which Mose has never been on.

This is what I mean, you seem to be blinkered on this 8 mins thing. Mose can,t be placed into any "pigeon hole" category or statistic its more complex than that. It seems as though you have difficulty in understanding that, maybe most of us will just accept the imbalanced criticism or personal opinion.

Human hearts along with all our other organs grow in proportion to our body size. Obviously, if you were to pile a ridiculous amount of weight on in fat or muscle, then that would pile a lot of pressure on the heart. However, Mose is a big big lad, not because of incessant weight training or whatever, because of his genetics. So don't be worrying about Mose's heart if he has to do a bit of graft.

We're gonna have to agree to disagree mate. I respect your opinion. He's not my cup of tea but I'll cheer him on like any other fan but as soon as he puts a poor shift in, I'll slag him off. Likewise, if he plays well I'll praise him, which I have done on pg1 of this thread.

I'm not quoting stats on his time on the field, I'm stating facts. Some games he can't do 10 mins without him looking to the Bench with his hands on his hips or on his knees.

The grand final he lasted 8 mins which is prob a grand final record. Yet some weeks he can do 20 mins no sweat. I think that's just down to atititude and some weeks he just doesn't want to be out there.

I'd say it's more to do with how he uses his energy in the minutes he's on, how much defence he gets through & how our half backs or make shift ones at times use him running onto the ball or just make him lose energy taking flat ball etc. Think it's harsh to say attitude really

Harsh but true.

I'm not worried about Mose's heart. What I'm saying is it is totally unrealistic to expect someone weighing in at 20st+ to have the same workrate as someone who is possibly FIVE STONES lighter. This is why guys occupying the offensive line in American football can barely last four successive plays without gulping down oxygen. It's not that these men are unfit. The NFL has some of the finest fitness coaches in the world and certainly the best facilities. With all the best conditioning, diet, lifestyle etc. in the world, it's almost impossible to squeeze the same workrate out of a 20st lineman as you can from, say, a 16st linebacker (unless he's some kind of genetic freak).

I absolutely agree that Mose's condition at game #1 was unacceptable. Like other "big" South Sea Island forwards (whose love of good food is legendary) returning from an injury which prevents any kind of fitness work until fully healed I do have a certain degree of sympathy. But he let himself down and he couldn't complain when the fans got on his back.

From that point he didn't miss a single game and he worked damned hard to get the weight off. In no language is that the behaviour of a "lazy" player. Lazy players make a half-hearted stab at tackling the weight problems and yet never manage to deal with them in full.

At the end of last season Mose was lean and fit. Just as he is now. If he's sometimes down on his haunches in games then maybe it's because he's lugging close to SEVENTY POUNDS more bodyweight than someone like Amor.

Seriously, if I placed a SEVENTY POUND pack on Kyle Amor's back do you think he'd just carry on as if it were a bag full of feathers?

This isn't rocket science guys. It's ABC stuff. I find it curious that whenever Mose starts breathing heavy or doesn't carry the ball on a set of six the FIRST RESPONSE always is "he's lazy" when there are other explanations which are not just more plausible but far more fair on a guy who has never missed a game and never been dropped.

Oh, and when it comes to protecting his teammates from the opposition's roughest, dirtiest players he's [uALWAYS FIRST MAN TO STAND UP. [/u

I've typed out several responses and deleted them, because I figured, what is the point with getting into this discussion? You have an opinion, so do I, and they're different. You won't change my mind.

It's statements such as the above which make me wonder how genuine you're being and whether your antipathy toward Mose is based on facts, observable evidence and reason or plain old prejudice.

I find it damning that nothing I can say will [i"change your mind"[/i - even though your initial claim that Mose's figures on hit ups, tackles, yards etc. would be substantially below Walmsley's and Amor's has been proven wide of the mark. (It begs the question why are you discussing Mose's attitude as though it's a matter which is up for debate when your mind is already fixed??)



Opinions are not inherently equal. Throughout I have supported mine with statistics, indisputable evidence (he's never been dropped, he's never missed a game, he's always the first man in protecting a team mate etc.) and reason (Mose's carrying seventy odd pounds more than Amor etc. etc.)

So far the best you've managed to come up with is circular logic ("Mose's lazy" - BUT BASED ON WHAT?) and your own observations.

Let's flip this argument around and see how genuine you are.

[i"PRECISELY WHAT would it take for you to think Mose isn't lazy?"[/i

If, as you claim, you are being fair to Mose then you won't have any objection to laying down REASONABLE (Mose's inability to match Kyle Amor's workrate given his vastly greater mass is NOT REASONABLE), and more importantly, TESTABLE criteria.

On the flipside, I'm quite happy to look at my position again if you can point to public statements made by the coach in which he has repeatedly identified Mose as a "lazy" player.

Why the really long post? For the third time now, I've said let's agree to disagree but you're insistent on carrying it on.

I notice you like to make very long posts that branch off in lots of different directions and just reading them are exhausting, to the point it would take a fair bit of time dissecting them, just to reply to all your points.

My point is, it's rarely a reasonable debate with you. No doubt in the next post or two, you'll question my intelligence or call me an idiot.

So reading a long post exhausts you, yet when Mose puts his hands on his hips after three or four drives and a handful of tackles he is being lazy.

Hahaha. Fair play mate

For God's sake man, you're not reading War & Peace.



I blame Facebook (which encouraged the idea that complex arguments and ideas can be conveyed in a paragraph). Then came Twitter (down to 255 characters).



If you think I'm not being reasonable then [iexplain why[/i. I [uDO YOU[/u that courtesy. As for judging your intelligence - I can only make a call on what you write. Or don't.

I'm not in the business of flattery. But I'm not so much of an ass that I won't give credit when it is due, either.

By the way, if you think I'm being awkward in here you should trade places with some of my previous employers.

It's not a successful day unless I see that blood vessel near the eye pulsing away like a neutron star.

Sorry Mugwump, I can't see what's to gain from continuing this debate with you apart from us repeating ourselves and dragging it on and on. You're not going to change your opinion and neither am I.

What we both have in common is that we both want to see Masoe play well. Let's hope he does a job on Leeds.

It seems it's o.k. for Mugwump to suggest folks should agree to disagree, however when anyone else suggests that, the argument must be continued ad nauseam

Put your bottom lip back in.

You just wouldn't let it lie

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzmzYEzFoDI I'll always have a soft spot for Mose after the start to the grand final.... it set the tone, wigan were rattled, which led to Flower losing the custard. It goes a little noticed because of what came after but look at the shot he put on O'loughlin at 4.54mins. Yes it was off the ball, possibly slightly late, yes he's been penalized for it in the past, but for me that shook him, put him off his game - we didn't see him....and this is for me, what Saints lack, this aggression, niggling, intimidation is the only thing what lets us down. Leeds had it over us for years....it would annoy me so much....bar Graham and Cunningham (and let's face it, it wasn't as if they were going to throw a punch), they were the only guys who gave it back....now since Mose has arrived he has been that guy to dish out, that guy so desperately missed. Yes, he goes missing, yes he can be a little lazy, but when he turns it on, its so effective and it's exactly what we'll miss next year. Who will bring the aggression next season? They best get shopping because it'll be needed to lift that title again! Same again tonight vs Leeds please Mose!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzmzYEzFoDI I'll always have a soft spot for Mose after the start to the grand final.... it set the tone, wigan were rattled, which led to Flower losing the custard. It goes a little noticed because of what came after but look at the shot he put on O'loughlin at 4.54mins. Yes it was off the ball, possibly slightly late, yes he's been penalized for it in the past, but for me that shook him, put him off his game - we didn't see him....and this is for me, what Saints lack, this aggression, niggling, intimidation is the only thing what lets us down. Leeds had it over us for years....it would annoy me so much....bar Graham and Cunningham (and let's face it, it wasn't as if they were going to throw a punch), they were the only guys who gave it back....now since Mose has arrived he has been that guy to dish out, that guy so desperately missed. Yes, he goes missing, yes he can be a little lazy, but when he turns it on, its so effective and it's exactly what we'll miss next year. Who will bring the aggression next season? They best get shopping because it'll be needed to lift that title again! Same again tonight vs Leeds please Mose!

Good post, we will miss Mose the Monster next season.

He has also scored 9 tries out of 50 games, which isn't a bad strike rate for a front rower.

Not my type of forward, he is from a past era, of course with his size brute force has delivered tries near the line, that is more akin to Union, not a fan of brute force from wingers like Ryan Hall, but he also scores tries.

I thought mose was one of the few that actully tried last night. He took it up strong and held his own without much help from the totally out of form kyle Amor.

Is brute force the only thing you see in Ryan Hall?

You mustn't be watching the same Ryan Hall that I see. I would suggest that you have another look