So basically what you and the other pieaters appear to be saying is that you're currently better than us with better players and didn't play well at all on Saturday yet you were only fourteen points better, playing at home, than a team that you've all just said are rubbish and played very poorly? If we're only fourteen points behind you after that then it won't be too hard to make up the difference.

If we repeat our performance from Saturday in two weeks' time we could put up the tents on Wigan's line and we still wouldn't make up those 14 points.

StHelens have over the course of SL had a far superior side to Wigan. The trophy count for each club during this SL era would indicate that. Yet Wigan have a better derby record between the sides during the SL era.

Derby games between the two sides therefore can't be used as indicator for a club's success, IMO. No matter how large or small the winning margin between the sides may be.

Perhaps to get a better indication of the difference in quality between the two sides would be to look at the SL table, or equally to look at which of the two clubs is through to the semi-finals of the CC.

I remember precisely the same things being said at around the same time last season and yet we knocked you out of the play offs - twice. And as everyone knows, the Grand Final is much more important than the Challenge Cup, yes?

(At least that is what Wigan, Warrington and Leeds fans kept saying to us when we won it three times on the spin)

You miss it once in 12 years and that's an indication of a side in decline. Wigan are a better coached and better drilled side. Nothing more, Nothing less. If the coaching situation had been in reverse for the last 3 years, your beloved team would be in as much trouble as we are now.
Also, in order to finance are own new stadium, recruitment has had to be curtailed (unfortunately) but both those situations will begin to be rectified come next season.

[size=150=#FF0000BE AFRAID!!!!! BE VERY AFRAID!!!!![/size

Sadly, at the minute, I agree with the crust muncher. We may have only lost by 14 points, but lets face, it were rubbish. Yes, the Goons were crap too, but that shouldn't be allowed to paper over the cracks, and admit that right now, we are poor. Only was we admit that, can we begin the process of regaining our former position. If we keep deluding ourselves that we are "nearly there", then we will return to the nearly men days before Super League.

Totally agree. You don't get anywhere by behaving like an ostrich.

You also don't get anywhere by assuming that the whole team has gone to pot. 2 bad coaches and a scaled back recruitment policy leaves us where we are. Not good, but nowhere near as bad as many on here believe!!!

On Saturday the whole team DID go to pot! Did you not watch the game? The only redeeming feature of the match in my view was that our youngest player showed up most of the senior players by actually upping his game in a big match. He was great to watch. The rest were frankly dismal, and we were missing only two senior players so there was absolutely no excuse for that showing.

thats about the sum of it

As I actually pointed out , if you had bothered to read, our current plight is down to awful coaching. These players have got us to consecutive Grand finals. They are not bad players, They have just been badly coached.

That's what you choose to believe. I believe differently, but I chose not to respond to that particular point. However, you have reiterated your point.

As St Pete said last week, if the team cannot motivate itself for a derby match against Wigan then it is a poor showing indeed. Two players did motivate themselves: Wello and Makinson. The rest didn't really turn up at all.
Wello and Makinson have been coached by the same coaches as the rest of the team and so I don't see how the coaches are the problem, other than in the present case they are inexperienced and shouldn't actually be in charge at all.

Unfortunately the players have had to motivate themselves for the past 3 years, because our last 2 full time coaches couldn't motivate anyone. We now have 2 fledgeling coaches running the team who managed to motivate them enough to halt the slide left by St Royce of Sydney. However motivation can not be the only driver of team performances, and at some point the bad coaching will out.
The current team have been running on motivation ( self and KC ) since the Leeds game and apart from Wigan twice we are not doing so bad.

At the moment Wigan are a very efficiently set-up and well drilled team. Motivation alone will not overcome this no matter how much you continue to bleat on about it.

That's pathetic even by your standards.

The rest of your post was just garbage so I'm not responding. You aint worth the effort.

That's pretty much what everyone else on here feels about you.

Besides you should show some respect to your elders. I have forgotten more about rugby league than you will ever know.

Good post.

With some very good coaching by Brown, and a few squad tweaks, we'll be back where we belong at the top

The squad tweaks are not minor, though.

We've two, possibly three, positions that simply must be filled with proven quality. That said, I'm confident Brown is a superb acquisition and there are not many I'd have chosen before him.

A fairly poor Wigan performance high in errors was 14 points better than a Saints side that was completing sets and had a lot of possession close to our line but looked clueless as to how to get over it. I'd argue that was our worst performance of the season, bar Hudds at home on the first day. We had a couple more gears and if some of the half-chances had stuck we'd have put another 20-30 points on you.

ok, not so minor, a proper halfback and a fullback, and a proper prop!

We need more than a few squad tweaks.

I think people need to be careful about putting too much hope in Brown. He's done great things with Hudds. Potter did great things with Catalan. Lots of people are now saying Potter was a poor coach at Saints. Daniel Anderson was a great coach for us but he was fired by other clubs. Just because Brown has done wonders with Hudds does not mean he will have the same impact on a Saints team. I think people need to be realistic.

I wasn't papering over the cracks. I thought I was pretty clear in saying that we are basically rudderless with coaches thrown in at the deep end and yet we were only fourteen points behind them. What happens when we're not rudderless with a coach that hasn't been thrown in at the deep end?

It doesn't take a genius to recognise that we do not need a wholesale clear out like some lunatics on both side of Billinge appear to be arguing. All I'm hearing from several of our fans is "If he isn't scoring 90m tries or winning man of the match every week" then replace him. There are areas in need of strengthening but we are not the Ian Millward era Wigoon as some people are trying to suggest.

A Wigan Saints derby will look like wrestlemania next year with Brown in charge, i think Brown will have the bottle to finally put some players to pasture too.

I hope so, and i want some aggresion back in our pack

At least at Hudds you can see he's promoting the kids and he's getting in some shrewd signings, Luke George for instance, he personally didn't think he'd cut it at Giants but he's doing well.

I like Brown and there's a chance some of his better players might come with him, he certainly gets a lot out of his squads.