Car dealers are interesting - I find them very easy to deal with I have a price I want to pay - I tell them at the start they either want to sell it at that price or they don't - saves so much time. If they don't somebody else will.

I disagree - power is binary either you have the upper hand or you don't - there is no middle ground. One party cannot be forced not matter what the threat if they don't want to go there.

We agree on the unions - outdated and incapable of adapting

Ok, I'll educate you. A union cant take industrial action unless 40% of those eligible to vote are in favour. Also, the industrial action must be in line with what was voted upon. So, in the case of Brexit ~34% of those eligible to vote voted in favour of leaving. The percentage voting for a Tory government was somewhat less. So, please explain why unions are not democratic whilst the referendum and GE were.

As long as your alright then

I am the one taking all the risk, I put all the money in - its my family's house on the line - so yes its pretty important that the tail doesn't wag the dog.

If the union is so good at running businesses let them get on with it - we all know what the result would be if they applied their own demands to their own business - it wouldn't last two minutes but they don't and therein lies the crux of the matter.

40% of the union membership not 40% of the workforce - for a start. So if the union call their members out what happens to non-union members who do the same job, they are also expected to strike - difficult to cross picket lines as you well know - that is one of the reasons why it isn't democratic - but then an educated man like you knew that (sic)

As I understand it, non-Union members are not allowed to strike. For me personally, crossing a picket line was difficult, even though it was the less than militant UCU - just didn’t feel right. So, because I hadn’t got around to joining initially, I had to take a day of annual leave. Next time, I was on the picket line. That was kinda boring.

That's not what I meant
Your position on Power - You either have the upper hand or you don't - That's all well and good when you come from a position of power
Unfortunately the people with the power tend to hold the Power in 95% of their dealings day to day

Shoe on the other foot and it's a whole different Ball game

I have found Unions to be useless - I don't particularly care for them - However if anyone thinks that ALL employers would treat workers fairly and not exercise their power over the more vulnerable if they could to maximise profits is living in dream land.
Andy maybe that's where unions and the EU do serve a purpose however outdated and useless you want to portray them

I hear every day people slagging Police/Courts & Judges/EU etc.
But it's only in times of crisis that we understand/rely on them

I am trying to be optimistic in my thinking that this crisis will change peoples priorities, show compassion when required, Understand that not everyone has the same Priorities (i.e. Money) in life, that people will understand that there does need to be and there is a place in our country for a "Safety Net" in the form of properly funded Social care (Really good segment on Jon Oliver Monday about American Health care and the state they are in and how it needs to change when all this is over).
My gut feeling is we won't - The ones who want to care about themselves will carry on doing so under some other Banner to explain their actions & politics. Whilst the vulnerable will continue to be classed as Lazy, Communists, Lefties, hippies or any other Name by them to hide their prejudices & whilst there is some of those issues that blight that cause/stance - It's no more IMO and probably less than the amount of Privileged people out there exploiting others for their own Benefit/profits.

I get it that someone will rip my post to pieces - IR80 will tell me that I have "Politics of Envy" etc. and that's fine. Crack on.
I'm personally doing fine in my life, I hope everyone else is, and I wouldn't wish on anyone any issues financially or health wise, but if anyone does need them - Then I hope to good they appreciate what comfort that Social Care safety net is to Millions of less privileged people it is.

PS - Whilst not agreeing with a lot of what you say on various subjects I will admit that you do engage and provide your opinions largely in a healthy for debate kind of way.
However unfortunately there seem to be others that walk that line of almost revelling in other peoples issues and show no empathy towards others.
If that's what floats their boat fair enough - But luckily there are enough people who will fight the corner for others.

A good post - I have always found it useful to put myself in the other person's shoes - I always try to be fair whilst ensuring the firm continues for the good of all its employees. It would be great to pay everyone a minimum of £15 hour - sadly I would be out of business because my customers simply wouldn't pay because their customers wouldn't pay them. I am lucky I can choose who I want to do business with and I have a good enough reputation that if I lose a customer no matter how big I can keep trading.

The problem with the unions in my experience is they only see things one way and they don't think long term - their model is all about now - plus they are terrible negotiators and the average IQ of the management is so low it would be laughable if it weren't so tragic. Their life experience is also so narrow - similar to the majority of MPs - that they are incapable of any kind of lateral thought. They do their members no favours - it is no surprise Labour struggle when these people have such a big influence on the party.

Take Unite - they still have a final salary scheme for the top brass - paid for by members who lost that opportunity years ago - they are so out of touch.

As a union member during my working life ,i viewed it as an advantage especially with other fringe benefits that were on offer. There was always someone to speak up in disputes or disciplinary matters too .
I think the work packages agreed with unions though were good on the whole. Also ,being a HGV driver for 40 years ,i firmly believe that the EU working time directive & driver's hours directive made working practises worse .Drivers in particular were much better off safety wise under Domestic Rules.

I said "40% of those eligible to vote". Clearly if you're not a union member you dont get to vote in union ballots. It's a bit like the UK electorate not including all of the UK population.

Unions had a place in the past. These days with stringent H&S laws, employment law, moral and ethical working environments & employees........ it doesn't have a place. Hence the ever decreasing numbers/members

People are still scarred from the power strikes, bin strikes, ambulance strikes, fire strikes of the 70's and 80's. The train disruptions of recent haven't gone down well with the working population. My mate works on SW trains and he said we got a good pay rise I don't know why we are striking. Then he mentioned that the union had a desire to call an all out national train strike across the country. (I think at the time they had 4 franchises 'striking')

Job for life is long gone.

So less than 50% can dictate a strike - you think that is democratic in a binary vote? Even Brexit got >50%

Exactly my point the unions will deliberately force a poor situation in the hope of a bigger prizes - the workers are just pawns in a game. Fortunately the unions so intellectually sluggish they get beat every time.

It would be nice if I was a Russian oligarch or an eastern European mafia captain in which I could click my fingers and get a tory to do my bidding but alas I am not and so I have to side with many like minded people to get things done - we have to participate (rightly so) in a legal vote but the oligarchs do not.

Well that's convinced me then
And here's me thinking that it had A LOT to do with removing guards from trains and making them DOO ?
Now I am sure there a million opinions on the relevant safety or not of DOO but I can rest at ease in future when commuting that your mate got his pay rise and he was ok (wonder if hed have got a pay rise if there eerent unions?) And I dont have to worry about passenger safety.
Because I am absolutely sure the people at the very top getting 80% of any profits are solely interested in passenger welfare and providing great service and not profits

Correct
And just because they arent run fantastically well, doesnt mean there isnt a place for them
Yes they should be improved and updated, but anyone who thinks a majority of Business wouldn't exploit workers or shortcut on H&S for example in the name of improved profits without there being organisations to keep them in check is living in dream land.
"SOME" businesses may, lots wont.

So a union/workers "Getting Beat" is a good thing?
Irrespective of what the issue is???

Surely if they have a valid concern it would be a good thing if they won?

Their incompetence at achieving a good result shouldn't distract away from the intention of their action

I [uthink[/u the point being made is that a strike requires 50% of all votes casts in favour AND 40% of all [ipossible[/i votes.

If that is correct, a 51% vote in favour would require nearly 80% participation in the ballot. Or on 60% participation you’d need an approx. 66% vote in favour to sneak home, for example.

Brexit got 52% of votes but on ‘only’ 72.2% turnout - so not 40% of all those eligible.

Thank you, that's correct and it underpins my original point that Unions are more democratic than GEs or the recent referendum.

Depends on the circumstances - if like at Grangemouth they were going to bring the depot to a standstill unless the Ineos submitted then yes - SW trains just the same.

So we are saying if the firm has 100 employees of which 80 are members of the union only 60 vote so as long as 32 vote for it passes so a strike can be called if 32% of the workforce call for it?

You originally stated that it was a good thing they get Beat EVERY Time?
Is that not what your saying now?

Seems to be what your saying is that it depends on the circumstance now - And if that's the case then in those circumstances the issues they are bringing to the table are Worthwhile and you want them to Win?

Sounds like they do serve a purpose to me?

Oh - And being slightly sarcastic - Where did you get this evidence about those Depots/The rail industry?
Wouldn't be anecdotal would it?

What I am saying this if the employer wont budge the unions will lose every time because their position is much weaker - ask most workers would the rather work on lower pay or not work at all they will choose the former therein lies the problem for the union. SWT wont cave in and there is nothing the union can do to change that dynamic - its been in the news for months so just Google it? or isn't that sufficient for you.

I have said before and I will say it again I don't see where the unions fit in the modern working environment - so I don't see a major incident in the private sector that they can win.

Quote ="Sal Paradise"So we are saying if the firm has 100 employees of which 80 are members of the union only 60 vote so as long as 32 vote for it passes so a strike can be called if 32% of the workforce call for it?'" Yes. Although obviously, 20 of them would not be eligible to strike as non-union members. Similarly, if there were only 10 union members, and 4 out of 7 who participate in the ballot vote to strike, it’d be a legally mandated strike, for everybody except the 90 non-union members. Or if there were 66.65 million employees, but only 46.60 million were eligible to participate in the ballot and 13.05 million did not cast a vote, you’d need at least 18.64 million (rather than, for example, 17.41 million) for the walk out. The 40% of all the total electorate rule was applied to the 1979 Scottish devolution referendum, which failed to pass despite a 51.6% yes vote. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1979_Scot ... referendum

Quote ="Sal Paradise"So we are saying if the firm has 100 employees of which 80 are members of the union only 60 vote so as long as 32 vote for it passes so a strike can be called if 32% of the workforce call for it?'" Yes. Although obviously, 20 of them would not be eligible to strike as non-union members. Similarly, if there were only 10 union members, and 4 out of 7 who participate in the ballot vote to strike, it’d be a legally mandated strike, for everybody except the 90 non-union members. Or if there were 66.65 million employees, but only 46.60 million were eligible to participate in the ballot and 13.05 million did not cast a vote, you’d need at least 18.64 million (rather than, for example, 17.41 million) for the walk out. The 40% of all the total electorate rule was applied to the 1979 Scottish devolution referendum, which failed to pass despite a 51.6% yes vote. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1979_Scot ... referendum

https://www.thecanary.co/trending/2020/ ... us-policy/ On the local news last night a partially sighted person stated that his boss told him that "he had to go to work" - non essential - and to do so he has to catch public transport. He was having difficulty shopping - he has to touched the items-if they are there - and partially blind people don't have the same entitlements as other vulnerable people, e.g. they don't get the urgent deliveries that "true"vulnerable get from supermarkets. They obviously struggle to see 2m. God knows how they get through the toilet process at work in a safe manner but then again how does anyone? Do the Tories have any idea about anything that they get involved in?

https://www.thecanary.co/trending/2020/ ... us-policy/ On the local news last night a partially sighted person stated that his boss told him that "he had to go to work" - non essential - and to do so he has to catch public transport. He was having difficulty shopping - he has to touched the items-if they are there - and partially blind people don't have the same entitlements as other vulnerable people, e.g. they don't get the urgent deliveries that "true"vulnerable get from supermarkets. They obviously struggle to see 2m. God knows how they get through the toilet process at work in a safe manner but then again how does anyone? Do the Tories have any idea about anything that they get involved in?