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| Quote ="Sal Paradise"In a word McClusky who saw Ed as a puppet he could manipulate - how wrong he was and not for the first time
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Manipulating an opposition leader isn't very effective and right now, Labour are a hell of a long way from being electable to the masses.
If the Tories weren't so utterly inept, Labour would be tailed off last.
Thankfully for Corbyn, Mrs May is "in charge" and he may still get a sniff of power, just a sniff though as he will never win an overall majority.
However, May will be gone at some point and as long as the Tories dont go for Boris or Gove, they will win the next General Election. |
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| Quote ="wrencat1873"It's not the administrative cock up that is the issue, it's the denial of an over vigorous to deport anyone "we" can, regardless of whether they may be legally allowed to be here.
Over zealous staff, driven to overstep the line by those in power but its ok really ???
Try putting yourself in their position and just imagine the trauma.
Mind you it fits well with the immigrants "go home" vans that were trawling the capital, were they also an administrative error or just part of the racist narrative trotted out by the Conservatives and the Tory press.'"
Yes, I get all that. I have no problem with an aggressive climate surrounding ILLEGAL immigration - but a modicum of common sense would tell you most if not all Windrush migrants are (or should be made) legal.
The issue for the Home Office is that alongside the genuine cases, every day they are dealing with chancers and liars doing their best to gain entry to the UK by deception. Their culture has to be a suspicious one by definition. I wouldn't be surprised if some people are even using the Windrush backlash to sneak in the back door.
Of course it's traumatic. But yet again I will state the problem has been recognised, the government has acknowledged the distress caused and apologised, all Windrush migrants are being granted the right to remain and compensation is to be paid. I'm not sure what more you want them to do? I could tut and shake my head in empathy, but it won't really do much good. |
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| Quote ="Cronus"Yes, I get all that. I have no problem with an aggressive climate surrounding ILLEGAL immigration - but a modicum of common sense would tell you most if not all Windrush migrants are (or should be made) legal.
The issue for the Home Office is that alongside the genuine cases, every day they are dealing with chancers and liars doing their best to gain entry to the UK by deception. Their culture has to be a suspicious one by definition. I wouldn't be surprised if some people are even using the Windrush backlash to sneak in the back door.
Of course it's traumatic. But yet again I will state the problem has been recognised, the government has acknowledged the distress caused and apologised, all Windrush migrants are being granted the right to remain and compensation is to be paid. I'm not sure what more you want them to do? I could tut and shake my head in empathy, but it won't really do much good.'"
I agree, the issue does finally appear to be getting dealt with now and that can only be a positive step.
It was your "administrative cock up comment" that I thought was a little generous to those in charge at the Home Office.
Without the over zealous approach of "easy" targets, this would never have happened and to dismiss theis as an administrative cock up was letting certain people off the hook far too easily.
If people want their time in the "big chair" and take the kudos that comes with the ministerial title, they should also be prepared to take responsibility when things go wrong.
Rarely are these issues their personal fault but that's just the way it is.
Actually, credit should go to Rudd for actually resigning, far too many people in power dont take responsibility. |
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| Quote ="Cronus"Yes, I get all that. I have no problem with an aggressive climate surrounding ILLEGAL immigration - but a modicum of common sense would tell you most if not all Windrush migrants are (or should be made) legal.
The issue for the Home Office is that alongside the genuine cases, every day they are dealing with chancers and liars doing their best to gain entry to the UK by deception. Their culture has to be a suspicious one by definition. I wouldn't be surprised if some people are even using the Windrush backlash to sneak in the back door.
Of course it's traumatic. But yet again I will state the problem has been recognised, the government has acknowledged the distress caused and apologised, all Windrush migrants are being granted the right to remain and compensation is to be paid. I'm not sure what more you want them to do? I could tut and shake my head in empathy, but it won't really do much good.'"
That's all right then. Guy with cancer was denied treatment for 6 months. But it's ok now because it's been recognised, it's been going one for years and May and her successors have been denying it. And those on the government benches behind May have been cheering her on because they heartily approve of persecuting people with brown skins. They may say it in code, but we all now what they mean. |
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| Quote ="majorhound"That's all right then. Guy with cancer was denied treatment for 6 months. But it's ok now because it's been recognised, it's been going one for years and May and her successors have been denying it. And those on the government benches behind May have been cheering her on because they heartily approve of persecuting people with brown skins. They may say it in code, but we all now what they mean.'"
I don't see anyone saying it's 'all right'. But what more do you want them to do?
BTW, given you're apparently a gentleman of considerable years, you don't half post like a hormonal teenager. Your constant accusations of racism are plain boring. |
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Quote ="Cronus"I don't see anyone saying it's 'all right'. But what more do you want them to do?
BTW, given you're apparently a gentleman of considerable years, you don't half post like a hormonal teenager. Your constant accusations of racism are plain boring.'"
But true nevertheless. And it's not just me it's the United Nations
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/h ... 48021.html |
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Quote ="Cronus"I don't see anyone saying it's 'all right'. But what more do you want them to do?
BTW, given you're apparently a gentleman of considerable years, you don't half post like a hormonal teenager. Your constant accusations of racism are plain boring.'"
But true nevertheless. And it's not just me it's the United Nations
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/h ... 48021.html | |
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I can't see anything in that report stating that Tories are heartily cheering on racist policies deliberately targeting people with 'brown skin'. Which is what you said. And which is patently nonsense.
There will always be a proportion of actively racist people in any population. The UK is still one of the most liberally-minded and tolerant countries in the world by far. That said, it's no surprise there's an undercurrent of resentment given the way Labour under Bliar chose to flood the country in order to boost their vote. Or so they thought.
Problem is, for nigh on 20 years anyone expressing unhappiness with immigration has been automatically labelled racist and all discussion shouted down - by the likes of you, it seems.
What's hilarious is that if the numbers had been controlled, some modicum of empathy shown for the concerns of the existing population and you lot hadn't shouted down all discussion, Brexit would never have happened.  |
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I can't see anything in that report stating that Tories are heartily cheering on racist policies deliberately targeting people with 'brown skin'. Which is what you said. And which is patently nonsense.
There will always be a proportion of actively racist people in any population. The UK is still one of the most liberally-minded and tolerant countries in the world by far. That said, it's no surprise there's an undercurrent of resentment given the way Labour under Bliar chose to flood the country in order to boost their vote. Or so they thought.
Problem is, for nigh on 20 years anyone expressing unhappiness with immigration has been automatically labelled racist and all discussion shouted down - by the likes of you, it seems.
What's hilarious is that if the numbers had been controlled, some modicum of empathy shown for the concerns of the existing population and you lot hadn't shouted down all discussion, Brexit would never have happened. | |
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| Quote ="Cronus"I can't see anything in that report stating that Tories are heartily cheering on racist policies deliberately targeting people with 'brown skin'. Which is what you said. And which is patently nonsense.
There will always be a proportion of actively racist people in any population. The UK is still one of the most liberally-minded and tolerant countries in the world by far. That said, it's no surprise there's an undercurrent of resentment given the way Labour under Bliar chose to flood the country in order to boost their vote. Or so they thought.
Problem is, for night on 20 years anyone expressing unhappiness with immigration has been automatically labelled racist and all discussion shouted down - by the likes of you, it seems.
What's hilarious is that if the numbers had been controlled, some modicum of empathy shown for the concerns of the existing population and you lot hadn't shouted down all discussion, Brexit would never have happened.
'"
Although you may be right, the anti immigration campaign run by Farage & co, supported by the right wing press, has certainly increased the anti immigration feeling in the UK. |
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| Quote ="wrencat1873"Although you may be right, the anti immigration campaign run by Farage & co, supported by the right wing press, has certainly increased the anti immigration feeling in the UK.'"
Is there a connection between wage stagnation and increased levels of immigration - if there is then that will fuel anti-immigration feeling more than anything.
The work shy will always find a way of not working - for them remain is a great option |
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Quote ="Cronus"I can't see anything in that report stating that Tories are heartily cheering on racist policies deliberately targeting people with 'brown skin'. Which is what you said. And which is patently nonsense.
There will always be a proportion of actively racist people in any population. The UK is still one of the most liberally-minded and tolerant countries in the world by far. That said, it's no surprise there's an undercurrent of resentment given the way Labour under Bliar chose to flood the country in order to boost their vote. Or so they thought.
Problem is, for nigh on 20 years anyone expressing unhappiness with immigration has been automatically labelled racist and all discussion shouted down - by the likes of you, it seems.
What's hilarious is that if the numbers had been controlled, some modicum of empathy shown for the concerns of the existing population and you lot hadn't shouted down all discussion, Brexit would never have happened.
'"
This is pure Tory Central Office claptrap to try and pass the blame somewhere else, anywhere else. This happened on their watch, and they were happy for it to happen until they got caught. They then thought that an apology was sufficient. Racism is endemic in our country. Always has been, Those who express these views now feel emboldened by Brexit to do so. Ask yourself what the police reaction was to the murder of Stephen Lawrence, was it put every man on the case to get someone. No it was to plant an undercover officer with the Lawrence family to try and get some dirt on them. Let's hear a victim of the Tories' policies opinion:
"But there is no amount that can truly reflect the fear and anxiety, frustration and ill health we have suffered. It can’t fully reflect the three times I applied for and was given a job, only to be told that they were very sorry, but I couldn’t have it, because according to the government’s rules I didn’t have the right papers."
" have been here since 1963. I went to primary school here and secondary school. I worked as a healthcare supervisor, a traffic warden with Camden council and the Metropolitan police. I even had vaccination documents from the jabs I was given when I arrived here. I did jury duty three times; in fact, I was asked to do it again even while I was being told I didn’t belong in this country. I had letters sent to the Home Office on my behalf by Jeremy Corbyn. I said to him, “You must be able to help; you’re the prime minister in waiting.” But he couldn’t."
"I didn’t have a day free of worry. I became ill. I could not pay my rent and was taken to court by Islington council. I am still paying back thousands in rent arrears. I lived in fear of the day when there would be a knock on the door from the police. I arranged things for my three children to carry on without me, as if I was about to die. How can Javid’s compensation reflect that? How do you calculate compensation for the hours I sat waiting to talk to someone in the Home Office? Or the fact that I couldn’t visit my mother when she was dying in Barbados? I still don’t even know where she is buried."
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ome-office
I've no doubt that there are plenty of Aussies and Kiwis who came here about the same time, and I'd like to bet they're not suffering the same anxiety as this lady. |
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Quote ="Cronus"I can't see anything in that report stating that Tories are heartily cheering on racist policies deliberately targeting people with 'brown skin'. Which is what you said. And which is patently nonsense.
There will always be a proportion of actively racist people in any population. The UK is still one of the most liberally-minded and tolerant countries in the world by far. That said, it's no surprise there's an undercurrent of resentment given the way Labour under Bliar chose to flood the country in order to boost their vote. Or so they thought.
Problem is, for nigh on 20 years anyone expressing unhappiness with immigration has been automatically labelled racist and all discussion shouted down - by the likes of you, it seems.
What's hilarious is that if the numbers had been controlled, some modicum of empathy shown for the concerns of the existing population and you lot hadn't shouted down all discussion, Brexit would never have happened.
'"
This is pure Tory Central Office claptrap to try and pass the blame somewhere else, anywhere else. This happened on their watch, and they were happy for it to happen until they got caught. They then thought that an apology was sufficient. Racism is endemic in our country. Always has been, Those who express these views now feel emboldened by Brexit to do so. Ask yourself what the police reaction was to the murder of Stephen Lawrence, was it put every man on the case to get someone. No it was to plant an undercover officer with the Lawrence family to try and get some dirt on them. Let's hear a victim of the Tories' policies opinion:
"But there is no amount that can truly reflect the fear and anxiety, frustration and ill health we have suffered. It can’t fully reflect the three times I applied for and was given a job, only to be told that they were very sorry, but I couldn’t have it, because according to the government’s rules I didn’t have the right papers."
" have been here since 1963. I went to primary school here and secondary school. I worked as a healthcare supervisor, a traffic warden with Camden council and the Metropolitan police. I even had vaccination documents from the jabs I was given when I arrived here. I did jury duty three times; in fact, I was asked to do it again even while I was being told I didn’t belong in this country. I had letters sent to the Home Office on my behalf by Jeremy Corbyn. I said to him, “You must be able to help; you’re the prime minister in waiting.” But he couldn’t."
"I didn’t have a day free of worry. I became ill. I could not pay my rent and was taken to court by Islington council. I am still paying back thousands in rent arrears. I lived in fear of the day when there would be a knock on the door from the police. I arranged things for my three children to carry on without me, as if I was about to die. How can Javid’s compensation reflect that? How do you calculate compensation for the hours I sat waiting to talk to someone in the Home Office? Or the fact that I couldn’t visit my mother when she was dying in Barbados? I still don’t even know where she is buried."
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ome-office
I've no doubt that there are plenty of Aussies and Kiwis who came here about the same time, and I'd like to bet they're not suffering the same anxiety as this lady. | |
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| Quote ="Sal Paradise"Is there a connection between wage stagnation and increased levels of immigration - if there is then that will fuel anti-immigration feeling more than anything.
The work shy will always find a way of not working - for them remain is a great option'"
Not quite sure what you're inferring there.
My view is that anyone coming in from The EU, is doing so to "better themselves" and not for any kind of "free ride".
The wage stagnation, despite the positive spin from the Tories, primarily because the UK is just about on it's knees.
Mind you, if you read the Tory press, you will believe that it's all down to Jonny Foreigner and the "Lazy Youth".
Never once do they mention poor management of the economy and the swingeing austerity cuts that we're all still enduring.
Like pot holes in the roads, it's never down to government policy. |
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| Quote ="Sal Paradise wrote"
Is there a connection between wage stagnation and increased levels of immigration - if there is then that will fuel anti-immigration feeling more than anything.
The work shy will always find a way of not working - for them remain is a great option'"
Quote ="wrencat1873"Not quite sure what you're inferring there.
My view is that anyone coming in from The EU, is doing so to "better themselves" and not for any kind of "free ride".
The wage stagnation, despite the positive spin from the Tories, primarily because the UK is just about on it's knees.
Mind you, if you read the Tory press, you will believe that it's all down to Jonny Foreigner and the "Lazy Youth".
Never once do they mention poor management of the economy and the swingeing austerity cuts that we're all still enduring.
Like pot holes in the roads, it's never down to government policy.'"
More right wing bololx. The work shy are either too stupid to vote the correct way or too lazy to vote as the areas with the highest unemployment rates tended to vote Brexit. Instead of blaming people who leave their families, risk their lives to get here we should be looking at the scum who exploit the vulnerable & desperate, wherever they are from. |
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| Quote ="tigertot"More right wing bololx. The work shy are either too stupid to vote the correct way or too lazy to vote as the areas with the highest unemployment rates tended to vote Brexit. Instead of blaming people who leave their families, risk their lives to get here we should be looking at the scum who exploit the vulnerable & desperate, wherever they are from.'"
The good old tried and tested right wing jibe. Usually coupled with the daily mail reader insult . Ironically holding the governments feet to the fire on this windrush scandal is the press. This is the industry that Tom Watson and his Labour Party chums want to legislate. Along with watsons lovie third rate showbiz coherts. Still I suppose if someone gives you large amounts of money you have to dance to his tune. |
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Quote ="Backwoodsman"The good old tried and tested right wing jibe. Usually coupled with the daily mail reader insult . Ironically holding the governments feet to the fire on this windrush scandal is the press. This is the industry that Tom Watson and his Labour Party chums want to legislate. Along with watsons lovie third rate showbiz coherts. Still I suppose if someone gives you large amounts of money you have to dance to his tune.'"
Do you really believe this? We have the most biased right wing press in Europe. Is there any wonder that with the Sun, Star and Express ranting on about the EU years in year out for about 30 years, that places like Sunderland (with a helluva a lot to lose) voted for Brexit. All their problems according to this so-called free press could be solved by coming out of the EU. If memory serves it was this same "free press" that 30 years ago said that all our problems would be solved by hamstringing the trade unions. And look where that's got us?
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 59266.html |
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Quote ="Backwoodsman"The good old tried and tested right wing jibe. Usually coupled with the daily mail reader insult . Ironically holding the governments feet to the fire on this windrush scandal is the press. This is the industry that Tom Watson and his Labour Party chums want to legislate. Along with watsons lovie third rate showbiz coherts. Still I suppose if someone gives you large amounts of money you have to dance to his tune.'"
Do you really believe this? We have the most biased right wing press in Europe. Is there any wonder that with the Sun, Star and Express ranting on about the EU years in year out for about 30 years, that places like Sunderland (with a helluva a lot to lose) voted for Brexit. All their problems according to this so-called free press could be solved by coming out of the EU. If memory serves it was this same "free press" that 30 years ago said that all our problems would be solved by hamstringing the trade unions. And look where that's got us?
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 59266.html | |
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| Quote ="tigertot"More right wing bololx. The work shy are either too stupid to vote the correct way or too lazy to vote as the areas with the highest unemployment rates tended to vote Brexit. Instead of blaming people who leave their families, risk their lives to get here we should be looking at the scum who exploit the vulnerable & desperate, wherever they are from.'"
Steady on there Tigertot.
I was trying to have a pop at the Tories and their Fleet Street buddies.
The only common ground that I have with Sal, is that we both post on RLFans.
Please read my previous posts, which pretty much agree with your point on the vast majority of immigrants in the UK and especially those from the EU.
Why would anyone come to Britain just to claim benefits, this is just a myth to suit right wing sympathisers and please, dont put me anywhere near that category. |
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| Quote ="wrencat1873"Steady on there Tigertot.
I was trying to have a pop at the Tories and their Fleet Street buddies.
The only common ground that I have with Sal, is that we both post on RLFans.
Please read my previous posts, which pretty much agree with your point on the vast majority of immigrants in the UK and especially those from the EU.
Why would anyone come to Britain just to claim benefits, this is just a myth to suit right wing sympathisers and please, dont put me anywhere near that category.'"
Sorry mate, I was agreeing with you not disagreeing. I quoted both posts for context. |
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| Quote ="tigertot"Sorry mate, I was agreeing with you not disagreeing. I quoted both posts for context.'"
Phew, I wasnt sure whether to get a blue rinse or douse myself with disinfectant.
I'm glad you cleared that one up though. |
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As majorhound pointed out. Our press is a joke. Take today’s dailymail headline about unemployment. A couple of brexiteers at work were beating their chest about it. Just like Cronus they took it at face value. When I mentioned that it included zero hour contracts they had no idea what that meant
Regards
King James
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Quote ="majorhound"Do you really believe this? We have the most biased right wing press in Europe. Is there any wonder that with the Sun, Star and Express ranting on about the EU years in year out for about 30 years, that places like Sunderland (with a helluva a lot to lose) voted for Brexit. All their problems according to this so-called free press could be solved by coming out of the EU. If memory serves it was this same "free press" that 30 years ago said that all our problems would be solved by hamstringing the trade unions. And look where that's got us?
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 59266.html'"
More left wing clap trap - let's give the unions unlimited powers - you think productivity is bad now, it would be catastrophic if you gave the likes of McClusky their way
When comrade Corbyn gets in power you will see what its like to have unions running feral
Some of us have long memories what it was like when you had a large public sector and unrestricted union power - be careful what you wish for |
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Quote ="majorhound"Do you really believe this? We have the most biased right wing press in Europe. Is there any wonder that with the Sun, Star and Express ranting on about the EU years in year out for about 30 years, that places like Sunderland (with a helluva a lot to lose) voted for Brexit. All their problems according to this so-called free press could be solved by coming out of the EU. If memory serves it was this same "free press" that 30 years ago said that all our problems would be solved by hamstringing the trade unions. And look where that's got us?
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 59266.html'"
More left wing clap trap - let's give the unions unlimited powers - you think productivity is bad now, it would be catastrophic if you gave the likes of McClusky their way
When comrade Corbyn gets in power you will see what its like to have unions running feral
Some of us have long memories what it was like when you had a large public sector and unrestricted union power - be careful what you wish for | |
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| Quote ="tigertot"More right wing bololx. The work shy are either too stupid to vote the correct way or too lazy to vote as the areas with the highest unemployment rates tended to vote Brexit. Instead of blaming people who leave their families, risk their lives to get here we should be looking at the scum who exploit the vulnerable & desperate, wherever they are from.'"
Perhaps if these people were prepared to stand up and fight their oppresion then those despots who cause the misery wouldn't have it so easy. Whilst ever these cowards just pack up and run the likes of al-Assad will have their way.
You can't have it both ways - either they did vote for Brexit or they were too lazy to do so? Labour deliberately keep unemployment benefits at a reasonable level because these were key voters for Blair and his cronies. |
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| Quote ="Sal Paradise"Perhaps if these people were prepared to stand up and fight their oppresion then those despots who cause the misery wouldn't have it so easy. Whilst ever these cowards just pack up and run the likes of al-Assad will have their way.
You can't have it both ways - either they did vote for Brexit or they were too lazy to do so? Labour deliberately keep unemployment benefits at a reasonable level because these were key voters for Blair and his cronies.'"
Wow, more utter garbage.
Benefits kept to the max to ensure votes from the unemployed.??
Why was it then, that the Tories have slashed and burned the welfare state and yet, their majority all but disappeared 
There is a huge amount of apathy among the voting public, you only have to look at the numbers in both the GE and more recent local elections to see this and apart from Corbyns late attempt to rally the young, with his give away manifesto, ALL parties and the media are guilty for not trying to drive voting numbers upMind you, this suits the Tories as they take the lions share of the "silver" vote and it isnt in their interests to encourage the under 25's to mark an "X" |
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| Player Coach | 15521 | No
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| Quote ="wrencat1873"with his give away manifesto'"
You mean his fully costed manifesto - as opposed to the Tory one, that contained no sums at all, and has seen several key pledges scrapped? |
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| International Chairman | 17146 | No
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| Quote ="Sal Paradise"Perhaps if these people were prepared to stand up and fight their oppresion then those despots who cause the misery wouldn't have it so easy. Whilst ever these cowards just pack up and run the likes of al-Assad will have their way.'"
Like the Palestinians this week perhaps? |
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| Quote ="tigertot"Like the Palestinians this week perhaps?'"
Who were then shot in the head by bullets sold by the tories. WHich I suppose, is a cheaper way of reducing immigration.
Regards
King James |
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| Quote ="bren2k"You mean his fully costed manifesto - as opposed to the Tory one, that contained no sums at all, and has seen several key pledges scrapped?'"
You don't still believe that claptrap do you?
Neither manifesto stood up to scrutiny but Labour's was laughable. Not surprising if Diane Abbott was anywhere near it.
Labour offered lots of sums on the back of a massive increase in debt at a time when national debt is already around 90% of national income. A 50% (£25 billion) increase in borrowing each year, in addition to over £250 billion to renationalise various services. That's before we include £10 billion on tuition fees, £8 billion for education, £6 billion for the NHS and £1 billion for social care. They were banking on increasing tax returns but clearly don't understand how they work and massively overestimated returns.
Staggeringly, they were going to funding this in part via increased taxes on high earners...while implementing an Excessive Pay Levy to reduce the number of high earners.  |
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