Not only have we had to go from 'normal use PPE' to 10's of millions of items being manufactured, procured & delivered but we've also had to develop guidance on what is the correct PPE and how long and in what circumstances it should be worn https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... ipment-ppe But you stick to the; we should have had it on a shelf accompanied by guidance on a virus that didn't exist mindset. Keep your thinking simple as it makes for a good drunken discussion.

Not only have we had to go from 'normal use PPE' to 10's of millions of items being manufactured, procured & delivered but we've also had to develop guidance on what is the correct PPE and how long and in what circumstances it should be worn https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... ipment-ppe But you stick to the; we should have had it on a shelf accompanied by guidance on a virus that didn't exist mindset. Keep your thinking simple as it makes for a good drunken discussion.

If there is one job you can social distance its this one. Whats the issue?

There is no issue with creating safe work environments it just needs careful planning - anyone who can't see that is being blinkered for a different reason.

Lazy sods wanting furlough so they can sit on their s(no doubt a heavily unionised organisation). Let's keep the country going as best we can.

Ten bob Tory

After hearing that frontline doctors and nurses were using bin bags as ppe , Matt Hancock has started a “Donate your Binbags “ campaign



He’s serious.

You got it.

Twenty eight dead NHS staff.

Many more seriously ill. Including the three nurses pictured last week using bin bags as protection.


Fucking Tories killing workers again

Postal workers are not all employed as postmen / women.
Have you never seen inside a sorting office ?

Didn't staff in Warrington walk out earlier in the week?

By heavily unionized I assume you mean democratic.

That's an Oxymoron if there was one Unions and democracy

Well, if the rules on union voting were applied to GEs and Brexit then we wouldn't have a Tory government and we wouldn't be leaving the EU. So, what form of democracy would you prefer?

What are you talking about - perhaps if we all followed what went on at the Unite at Falkirk

I’ve just read up on this, out of curiosity.

Again, out of curiosity, is your concern here with trade union entryism and block payment for membership, or the Labour NEC arbitrarily refusing to accept votes from new members?

I think it is an interesting problem/opportunity across the political spectrum. Local party organizations are often small, making them vulnerable to entryism. As we saw with UKIP-type folk joining the Conservatives in an effort to challenge remain/soft Brexit MPs and candidates. Whether that is a vulnerability of or opportunity for democracy probably depends on whether the entryists’ goals align with our own political principles.

My point about the unions are that they are not democratic - if the all the people at their HQ had to go on to strike/no pay when they had a strike great - but they don't so the strikers are political football stuck in the middle with the most to use. In my experience they serve no real purpose - there are laws about working conditions, trying to remove anyone is now so difficult, wage negotiations are perfectly possible and have more to do with market conditions in my world lack of HGV drivers - they serve no purpose in fact in the private sector they are a distinct disadvantage to employment. In the public sector perhaps it is a different world?

Unions will do the wrong thing in one chapel so as to prevent the same situation happening elsewhere - its madness.

An official strike requires democratic support from members. The union HQ going on strike in sympathy would be an act of stupid self harm. It isn’t like a hunger strike.

Those laws about working conditions mightn’t exist without trade unions. While wage negotiations are possible, it is easier to ‘pick-off’ individual or small negotiators. That is, for example, a big part of why European healthcare is a lot cheaper than in the US, where a fragmented private insurance system lacks the power to secure better immediate value for its customers.

A lot of HR people do a fantastic job but ultimately they exist to protect the employer’s interests, leaving individual employees vulnerable to abuses of power.

It’s sad that we have had such an adversarial, distrustful relationship between workers and bosses in the UK and battled to compromises so often where interests diverged rather than finding them through partnership. The growing gig economy will require new approaches and the younger generation will have to work that out in their own way.

The great problem is that the world & its mother needs ppe all at the same time & there wasn't enough stock piled anywhere because the problem & need wasn't anticipated. Perhaps a future solution would be to go back to fabric ppe that can be washed ,sterilised & reused.
My son is a HGV driver for a well known company delivering to small supermarkets & their pandemic ppe consists of 1 sanitised wipe per day.

Is Sin Bin sponsored by Momentum?

We all know that voting against a strike if its called is difficult - the idea that its any way democratic is delusional - its like an election in Africa!!

I think your last statement is incorrect - we a distrustful relationship between employers and the representatives of employees who work to a set agenda in which the individual is lost. The guy/girl from the union wont lose their job if their intransigence leads to the employer taking a course of action that leads to loss of jobs. McClusky soon piped-down when Ratcliffe said enough is enough I don't need this I will close Grangemouth. To blame the employer all the time is unfair.

With the power recently given to the government to change employment law Unions are more important than ever, which sadly many will find when savings need to be made.

Tbf, when I was in a Union and was balloted on industrial action I didn’t feel remotely pressured in how I voted. It wasn’t like it was a show of hands in the car park.

It isn’t always the employers’ fault or even a case of there being fault at all. It’s about power, frankly - and collective bargaining, like in many walks of life, is more powerful. There’s a loss of fine individual control, maybe... but across a large organisation would management want to be negotiating with every individual every time there’s a need for consultation and change?

Work is becoming more transient, and labour relations will no doubt evolve to reflect that.

The company doesn't need to negotiate with every employee - they simply need to set guidelines/pay grades and then the managers adjust between the upper and lower limit to reflect performance - not difficult really.

The power in the private sector lies with the employer the opposite is the case in the public sector. Jim Ratcliffe showed the power of what private businesses can bring to the table - not so easy in the public sector - can you close down refuse collection. Collective bargaining is a very blunt tool and seldom delivers the best outcome because it doesn't allow for better performers who in that scenario are in with the rest - dumbs down - it cannot do otherwise i.e. lowest common denominator. Take SL what suits Leeds/Wigan/Saints is not the same as Wakefield/Salford etc so any deal has to be dumbed down.

Unions are an outdated concept and not fit for today's work in the private sector - yes in the public sector where progress is snail-pace a contributory factor is definitely the intransigence of the unions. Will they evolve - perhaps some fresh unions that don't carry the history/practises of the current crop of established unions?

A car dealer doesn’t ‘need’ to deal with the illogical, shameless, psychotic brilliance of my wife’s negotiation - they’d be perfectly capable of selling me my new automobile within a narrow internally-agreed range of the list price. Yet, for some strange reason, I take her along.

Power isn’t binary... it can be taken, or at very least mitigated. And it can shift.

Employers and employees have shared goals (a successful and profitable enterprise) but there’s a tension there about how the rewards should be divided and both sides try to rig the market, and sell it as a moral good. Sometimes it is, depending somewhat on your perspective.

I agree that unions have become less relevant. The younger generation are much more flexible and self-reliant, and rather less naively loyal than mine. They have a different set of values and tools, as every generation needs to.