I believe in free trade; all you can come up with are vast armies of straw men about how "socialism" is actually authoritarianism and a threat to our capitalist way and life (I mean honestly, it's madness - do you really think we live in a purely capitalist country now? Are you that far out of touch with reality?) and some amazing rubbish which appears to involve anyone who knows stuff should pipe down because expertise is not a value we require any more.

I think you've just blown his mind with those two options - he doesn't even know that the UK is already full of "socialist" programmes.

What you are saying is that if it was a Labour government giving itself additional powers to run people’s lives you would not accept it because the Conservatives appear to be doing exactly that. They have in the time since Johnson was elected severely limited public freedoms and also restricted debate despite the promise the parliament would regain its sovereignty. We are now closer to any totalitarian state in our history. I wonder when the pandemic is over which it will eventually be despite this government’s many failures how many of these new laws will be rescinded.

Quote ="The Ghost of '99"I think you've just blown his mind with those two options - he doesn't even know that the UK is already full of "socialist" programmes.'" It is a silly question in a few ways. It depends on the degree of capitalism and socialism. And obviously socialist systems can be irrational, corrupt and prone to being gamed as well. I’d take well-regulated capitalism over badly designed socialism everyday. However it did make me think about my own order of priorities. I lean toward internationalism, especially when we face so many global challenges - but would I put that ahead of a more equitable society in the UK? Another random thought on your point the UK socialist programmes. The right view privatisation of the rail network as sensible and desirable. Generally speaking, obviously they’re not all of one mind. But nobody ever floats privatising the whole road network. Or not that I’ve seen, at least. I Google it now. There’s the M6 toll, of course. Edit - actually there was a little flurry of articles through 2012 and 2013, and the Cameron govt seemed to be thinking about it. One example... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-17429483

Quote ="The Ghost of '99"I think you've just blown his mind with those two options - he doesn't even know that the UK is already full of "socialist" programmes.'" It is a silly question in a few ways. It depends on the degree of capitalism and socialism. And obviously socialist systems can be irrational, corrupt and prone to being gamed as well. I’d take well-regulated capitalism over badly designed socialism everyday. However it did make me think about my own order of priorities. I lean toward internationalism, especially when we face so many global challenges - but would I put that ahead of a more equitable society in the UK? Another random thought on your point the UK socialist programmes. The right view privatisation of the rail network as sensible and desirable. Generally speaking, obviously they’re not all of one mind. But nobody ever floats privatising the whole road network. Or not that I’ve seen, at least. I Google it now. There’s the M6 toll, of course. Edit - actually there was a little flurry of articles through 2012 and 2013, and the Cameron govt seemed to be thinking about it. One example... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-17429483

Not at all - you have a valid opinion - what seems to be the case is you are suggesting that anyone who doesn't agree with your view of the world is stupid - especially if they voted to leave the EU.

We have a mixed economy but it is the capitalist businesses that drive wealth generation - surely even you can see that? The money it generates allows for taxes to be collected to provide all those touchy/feely services you so admire.

You know like everyone else these are temporary measures in an extreme situation.

How do you think the talks are going, Sa and what happens to the Irish Border in a "no deal" scenario.
One of the major issues right at the outset, 4 years later, oven ready deal and not a step closer to a sensible resolution.

Assuming that there isn't a comprehensive FTA sorted and it looks less likely at the moment, just what do you think will happen with cross border trade ?

The talks are going as well as you would expect - probably not as you expected? You probably thought that we would roll over and agree to anything to get a free trade deal - I suspect so did the EU.

State aid - get real - nobody worse than the Germans for state intervention e.g. Lufthansa!! I don't know how they have the cheek to demand as an independent state we cow down to them.

On Ireland its simple - just ensure any product that goes into the EU meets their standards and the local standards authority deal with an breaches as is the case with product that comes here from outside of the EU - we seem to want to make things more difficult than they need to be.

On fishing - I would concede as part of the deal and move on

I dont/didn't want us to roll over at all.
Having been told so damn often just how easy it would be to get a free trade agreement with the EU and that the issues surrounding the Irish Border would be solved, it seemed reasonable to expect that this would indeed be the outcome.

Sadly, it just doesn't look to be the case (although to some of us, it never did).

Right from the outset we (the voting public) were sold a pup and in 3 years plus since the referendum NOTHING has changed.
If I was part of the EU side, who have way more to gain from this than the UK, I would sit tight.

Let's face it, they have lost the UK's contributions and their economy dwarfs that of the UK
Just think how you may feel when/if Scotland goes it alone, you certainly wouldn't want / expect England to concede too much ground in the negotiations and the current situation is similar.

Those on the right of the Tory party have done a fantastic job



The "frictionless trade" promised so often is just another myth.
The likelihood of tariffs and additional cost for importing from the EU is certainly real, even in my own business there are costs already racking up, trying to prepare for what may come and to not know what we need in just 12/14 weeks time is bloody scandalous.
But, what the hell, it's only money.

I see the Government have decided their own withdrawal agreement is rubbish.

I wonder what they’ll do when they work out that breaking international law is a rubbish solution.

It may be stupid, but at least it is our own British stupidity... I suppose. Yay.

Whatever happens it’s Boris and his government’s stupidity but sadly it is all of us that will have to pay.

All they have done is react to the EU threatening to ban all UK exports of food to Northern Ireland - that is the culture of the EU - if they don't get their own way they want to play stupid games - Frost is way to tough for Barnier. Let's just draw a line a line under it and move on accept the talks are going nowhere and get on preparing for WTO terms in January.

For all of our sakes, we'd be better off agreeing to disagree and at least having 14 weeks to set things up to run with WTO terms, apart from 14 week just isn't long enough to have everything in place.
It's certainly going to get interesting and not necessarily in a good way.

As for Barnier and Frost, you are kidding - right ?
Frost looked like the new kid at school, following one of the "bigger boys" round.so that he didn't get lost.

Looking forward to those multi mile long lines of lorries queuing through the Kent countryside and sheep farmers going out of business because there isn't any WTO quota available for them under the rules we've decided to adopt.

I think some of these Brexit jokers think WTO is actually some sort of free trade basis, but then research and facts aren't their fortes.

But what tariffs are they proposing to apply? Zero tariffs and a free trade Nirvana? Remember what we apply to the EU we have we apply to the rest of the world, China included, so zero tariffs would flood the UK with imports and destroy domestic sectors.
"Punish" the EU for not folding to your ridiculous demands? Again you'd need to apply those to almost everyone so either shortages or inflation would be the enemy there.
Still I'm sure it's all been carefully thought through.

I'm pretty sure that didn't happen.

Whatever we choose, there are consequences to deal with - and Johnson is apparently unwilling to do that. Tbf, his lies are catching up with him, so I can understand his reluctance. And if he tried, one or more of the of the groups that put their trust in him will be (metaphorically) out for his blood. He's running out of time and lies to tell very rapidly now.

It's laughable really. We were told what a strong position we'd be in in these negotiations. How on earth does that square with the EU being able to "bully" us in the first place?

The reality is the EU set out their red lines very clearly, very early on. And, as they stick to them, and as we find that there is no cake and eat it solution to keeping the vast benefits of EU membership, the people who've been lying for the past 5 years are finding that everything they portrayed as Project Fear is gradually coming true. Now they're starting to throw their toys out of the pram because those nasty Europeans won't let us keep the all the things they've suddenly realised we actually need after all.

Utterly lacking in self awareness, utterly refusing to take any responsibility for the mess they've made and the damage they've done to our country.

Do we not trade with the likes of China on WTO terms? Who has said anything about zero tariffs?

Nobody is saying punish the EU - surely the view was trade talks would undertaken in the spirit of finding a workable solution - can you genuinely say the EU has tried to be constructive? Your view is we just concede everything to get a free trade deal i.e. in the EU - fortunately that ship has sailed.

So why are the EU looking to replace Barnier if he is doing such a great job!!

Am I right in saying there was a big stink about the MP's who wanted time to ratify the agreement, and they were told to just vote for it and get on with it?
Or was that a different agreement that was rushed through?

Yes we do. So we just apply the same tariffs as we do on Chinese imports to European ones. Simple! Until you realise what that actually means!


Yes, anyone who isn't fed by a drip of right wing propaganda knows they have. There are a bunch on off the shelf solutions, Norway, Switzerland, even Canada etc, so we've seen what sort of things we can achieve given what the EU countries will accept. They've actually offered movement in quite a few areas that would be better than these.

But the British continue to demand things which simply can't be offered. That's not a failing to be constructive, it's just fact as to what the community's red lines are and what will be vetoed by any particular country. And the interests of the Republic of Ireland are given an outsize importance given how things will impact them.

But yes, obviously they hold the whip hand in these negotiations so any deal we get isn't exactly going to be particularly favourable given the relative power dynamics. Like us they are looking after their own interests first. But this has been made clear all along and shouldn't come as some surprise to you.

I mean the fact you actually believe this story shows how much false news you have been consuming. Dear oh dear.

Let's see who is right shall we?

On radio 4 they had the German guy who acts as a go between and he stated that none of these deals Norway, Canada etc. can be adapted for the UK due to our proximity to the EU and our 40 years of involvement - so it would have to be a bespoke arrangement. So these off the shelf deals never existed in reality.

As you said both parties are trying to look out for themselves and it should come as no surprise to you that we haven't simply rolled over and let the EU tell us how its going to be. The EU cannot expect us to be a Norway - worse as they have quotas in their waters which the EU claim to be far too complicated to administer in our waters. They expect us to adhere to the ECJ, they want a say in state aid - when Germany just does what it wants when it comes to bailing out failing industries e.g. Lufthansa - so it isn't just the UK that is asking for things that simply can't be offered?

Just on state aid, it's a bit tiresome but Tories really do need to learn the difference between their governments ideologically refusing to help uk industries with it being disallowed under EU state aid rules. Another vast bundle of misinformation lies behind some of the stuff they come out with in this area when it's in reality been their own government stiffing them all along.

So are you saying the Lufthansa bail out was within EU state aid rules?