How long do you bed in schools - 3 months? if it takes that long most small businesses will be really suffering and as the furlough scheme will be ending we will see significant increases in unemployment. London looks to be in a terrible state - no doubt Mr Khan will be deflecting blame as usual!!

Do you extend the furlough on a 50/50 basis especially for certain industries e.g. travel, theatres etc?

We have relaxed the rules plenty and we haven't see a huge spike in infections/deaths?

The government cannot employ everyone - something has to happen and risks have to be taken if we are to avoid a huge impact on the economy

OK, tap on full it is then ??

You do remember the "R" number and if it gets pat one there is a problem ?
If we are saying this no longer applies then what the hell were the last 5 months all about.

I haven't advocated extending furlough,, merely suggested that while getting schools open, with the increase in traffic, movement of people and contact, perhaps it would be wise to leave those who can work effectively from home, working at home and for clarity, probably for 3/4 weeks not Infinium.

Of course there is a balance to be struck but, we've already had parts of West Yorkshire, greater Manchester and Leicester back on partial lockdown and that was without the movement/contact that will happen with schools fully open.

What I am saying is lockdown hasn't existed for 2 months at least and the infection rate and R rate hasn't increased in fact the opposite.

I never said you suggested extending the furlough - that was my suggestion. The last 5 months was about one thing and one thing only - protecting the NHS - there were news shows showing people in Italy in corridors and the government got scared because the NHS was such a pivotal topic in the GE everything was abandoned to protect it - wrongly in my view. We built used Nightingale hospitals everywhere but did nothing about educating children - why couldn't we have built Nightingale schools?

Exams should have gone ahead but the fixation with the NHS blinded this government.

The outbreaks in the areas you mentioned are a cultural issue with one small sector of society - again like the NHS the Islam is an issue that the government don't seem to want to tackle - sweatshops in Leicester, multi-generational housing and mixing etc. Don't see many outbreaks in other densely populated areas with differing cultural mixes?

Absolutely agree regarding exams, even if it had meant moving them back (a little).
You may be right about the outbreaks but, I'm not privy to the precise information so, wouldn't want to make those generalisations.

As for the R number, your wrong.

It has been increasing (slightly) over the last couple of months and is currently said to be between 0.9 and 1.1.
We are right on the line, hence my comments about how quickly the tap is being turned on.

For me, it's better to give schools those couple of weeks and try to ensure that more areas dont have further restrictions put upon them, than it is to have a mass return to work, school, eating out etc all at the same time.
If everything remains ok, then turn the tap a little more.
I would have thought that "we" would want the virus as much under control as possible as we move into the winter months.

We have been at this level of R number for several months - I agree with your sentiment of trying to control the virus - but we cannot continue to trash the economy forever - the consequences would be far worse than anything the virus will do

No we havent.
Before restrictions were eased, the rate was 0.7 - 0.9 and it's now 0.9 - 1.1.
With a rate of 1 being the tipping point for local lockdowns, some areas are right on the cusp, including Wakefield where I live.

I sure as hell dont want any additional restrictions on movement, therefore, some caution would be wise.

Get you, with your scaredy cat project fear talk. Always with the doom and gloom.

We just need to hold our nerve and stay at home watching Netflix in our pyjamas - once the economy sees we’re not going to give in to its unreasonable demands for productivity, it’ll have back to back down. While poverty and eventual starvation will be bad for us, it’ll be just as bad for the economy.

So if you take the margin of error it could have been closer to .9 than point .7 and it still could be closer to .9 than 1.1 - it is not as if it has been down at .3, .5 - so yes it has been at similar levels for months.

Even the government accept the R is a very blunt tool and the overall number can be influence by high levels in certain areas. So because you have issues in Wakefield everyone should have increased restrictions? Perhaps a greater understanding why it is happening in Wakefield would be far more useful and a policy adapted to deal with it e.g. Glasgow than blanket impact everyone?

You are typical of what is going on in this country - running scared of something that impacts so few people - deaths are virtually nil - complete overreaction

Grow up - please - the state of the economy impact every single person in this country - Covid has impacted a very tiny proportion of it - what would you say is the thing to be protected?

Okay, sorry. I am just very frustrated by us having such a rubbish, clueless, feckless, infantile Prime Minister.

I think the extent of the hazard has to be considered, as well as the number at risk. While tens of thousands of deaths and some quite severe longer-term consequences for some survivors, in a country of tens of millions, would be a tiny proportion in other contexts, this is literally life and death. And to a large extent, the limits on the impact to this point are because we have chosen to take an economic hit. I also think talking about COVID in the past tense isn’t sensible at this point.

On my angry and clumsy Brexit comparison. Nobody likes COVID, whereas 48% of the electorate liked the EU enough to want to remain as part of it. And, in fairness, not that many of the 52% will have imagined we’d pursue the most economically damaging form of Brexit, in the most unprepared and incompetent of ways.

There’s no solution, only choices. I just feel somewhat appalled at hearing Boris ‘f*** business’ Johnson saying we need to get the country back to work, like he gives half a poop about anything other than his own overweening and self-defeating ambition.

I agree with you about some of the government especially Boris - there are good ministers: Shapps, Sunek, Gibb, Gove, Lewis to name a few. The leadership is terrible.

Seasonal flu kills thousands every year - it is no surprise the excess deaths have fallen below the seasonal average which suggests many of those that have died of COVID would have died anyway just 2/3 months later. We don't close the economy down despite the impact of seasonal flu. For the vast majority people who get this virus it isn't a matter of life and death - especially amongst the young. I would agree this virus will be with us a long time - perhaps if we were more proactive in dealing with it rather than running scared we would improve our chances of returning to normality.

Brexit really upsets you - is that your lefty superior attitude and that you know best - who could any sane person vote to leave when in your mind being a big contributor with no influence e.g. cuckold is a preferable position. You can see from the negotiations what the EU want - a veto over our own laws and open season in our waters? Perhaps you need to be more objective about Brexit and why all those idiots (sic) didn't bow down to your superior knowledge and Nostradamus-like insight into the next few years?

Boris needs a return to the status quo - and quick - and he needs to start making good decisions

At the moment coronavirus is still baffling everyone, latest spanner in the works on today’s bbc web site by medical correspondent is the coronavirus test is testing positive for people who had the virus weeks ago and yet are fit and healthy. The majority of the medical experts can’t agree. Example, Sweden seems to have managed reasonable well without a draconian lock down. Read the other day one medical expert claiming the peak of coronavirus had passed as we went into lockdown. Personally only know of one person who has had it, pal of mine 72 years old quite fit Suffered for 5 days, then another 5 days to recover without any problems. Nobody in his family or friends who were in contact with him myself included contacted the virus.

Brexit is the unknown so I would tone down your positivity until the full impact is felt. I note you say Boris needs to start making good decisions, if you think he is capable of this then I must also reject your optimism that he will or has when it comes to Brexit.
We agreed a deal with the EU signed by May and passed in Parliament, it is this Boris is trying to change including doubling the fish quota limits. I sense that with Cummins doing the guiding a no deal Brexit is the preferred option. We do not have long now before we see the frictionless trade through Nth Ireland Boris promised and the smooth operations at Dover with the expert pre planning put in place by Gove.
I can see many months of chaos which they will blame on the EU let’s see who is correct and let’s see who suffers the most us or the much larger EU.

Yes, it is. I’m not proud of that... but at this point I’m not hugely embarrassed either.

I’m much more upset at Boris Johnson and Michael Gove failing to face up to the hard choices Brexit demands, than Brexit itself.



I could see from well before the negotiations what the EU wanted, they have been very open about it, and that Brexit couldn’t therefore be as advertised.

A lot of people are just tired of the current system at a number of levels. Politics has prioritised floating voters in swing seats, leaving a lot people’s views neglected. I understand and share much of the anger and frustration, their desire for change. I can understand a preference for sovereignty to reside (even) more at the national level and the impacts of immigration on the labour market, both positive and negative. Maybe this was needed as some sort of national breakdown, identity crisis, pressure valve, post-empire, post-deindustrialisation, post-financial crash and austerity slate cleaner. Fingers crossed, because there are other possibilities that scare the poop out of me.

Membership of a free trade area with no customs is "lefty" now. The world's gone mad - or rather the Tory party has.

I would love to be a member of that club as that's the one we joined. However it isn't just that is it? But you know that of course

First country to ever request trade sanctions be applied to itself... and then keep asking for less favourable terms.




Would you have been happy with a future relationship in line with the withdrawal agreement negotiated by Boris Johnson, which was ready to go... and avoided the further uncertainty of Labour’s back to the drawing board approach? Or are you happier that they’ve binned that off to pursue whatever they’re doing now?

There isn't a unicorn version of what you want unfortunately. To make trade barrier free and frictionless you have to concede certain aspects of "sovereignty", be it the right to impose tarriffs, the right to inspect goods without reason, the right to overtly prop up industries that are competing with companies in other countries, the right to separately negotiate external trade deals etc etc. Either we decide we want enjoy mutual prosperity with our neighbours or we don't; but the kicker of course is that we end up following so many EU rules anyway given our proximity and relative size to the EU market - except now we have no say in the framing of those rules any more, many of which had been so carefully crafted in the UK's favour over many years.

When we voted to join in the 70's it was sold as a free trade agreement and that's what we signed up for. It was a blatant lie. Nobody voted for what we ended up with. If the full intent had been put before the British public before that vote we'd have never joined.

This is a bit of a trope unfortunately.
But, regardless, this "stop the world, I want to get off" worldview is thoroughly impractical. You need to deal with the world as it is, not as you'd wish it to be. And the reality is that the planet is divided into huge trading blocs - and we've just extracted ourselves from the one we were, logically, part of and are now hoping to get deals with everyone, few of which will be better - and most of which by matter of law [ican't[/i be better - than we had already under the EU.

Anyway, just you wait until you see the state of the unelected bureaucracy of the World Trade Organisation

Your struggle with comprehension continues - the "lefty" refers to the notion that lefties know what's best for us all and we should bow down to their superior knowledge (sic).

Is that unique to the left though? Doesn’t the right feel that its approach is best?

There may be a difference in tone sometimes (lecturing and sanctimonious versus angry and wanting to tear down shibboleths), but who is on which side of that changes issue by issue.

There is a pleasing symmetry to the manner of our departure then, I suppose.

Whether its Socialism, Marxism, Communism it is about central control - they know what's best and those that can play the political game do best not those who generate most - does that remind you of any organisation? Its a race to the bottom - not bring the bottom up its bring the top down - that's the essential difference between left and right - we have never found a better way of improving overall wealth than Capitalism yet the likes of you despise it yet enjoy its benefits?

I think you’re describing authoritarianism, and that is not unique to the left by any means.

I don’t despise capitalism. I do lean to the left by UK standards and even in a rational capitalist system I‘d have significant concerns about the distribution of the wealth it generates, over the longer term.

My main criticism now, which seems to be shared by some capitalist theoreticians, is that our current capitalistic system is often irrational, corrupted and/or open to being gamed. That is, there’s too much incentive to play the system rather than to generate real value or, more narrowly, new wealth.

Right is used to cover a broadly capatalist-nationalist alliance. Brexit exposes tensions and contradictions within that broad position. Being a broad position, there’s no surprise it has such... complexity. There are tensions between my socialist-lite and liberal opinions on some issues, I don’t doubt. And, of course, my occasional preference for a policy from the right.

Out of interest, if the two choices available to you were being a citizen of capitalist United States of Europe or of a socialist United Kingdom, which would you prefer, hypothetically?