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Quote: captaincaveman "The EU has its own plan for its future. An ever closer union to create an effective one nation of europe, and a single currency in the euro. All the main players are signed up to the plan.

We are not taken seriously by the EU because we are not signed up to the plan, despite the huge amount of money coming from this country.

In reality this is not an In or Out referendum, more of an Out or continue to hang off the side of the EU.

The options really should be

IN and sign up fully to the plan and actually get some power within the EU

OUT and go it alone.

But not

REMAIN ie. Limp along in the no mans land as we do now.'"


For a German your English is very good.

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Quote: The Avenger "Britain saw a near 34% rise in exports to India, 31.2% to South Africa, 30% to Australia, 18.3% to Canada in the last 2 years alone.
The Commonwealth contains at least seven of the fastest-growing global Countries/economies.

In an ideal world we'd be able to trade with both and as you say we possibly could if we remain in the EU and the EU strikes a trade agreement with the Commonwealth. Unfortunately as with most things EU it won't be an agreement that suits the UK but rather it will suit France & Germany etc. and we'll have to accept the terms whatever they may be.

Beyond that the TTIP agreement will further marginalise our interests.

We have the 5th largest economy in the world and there are enough trade partners out there for us to negotiate our own deals. We don't need to be part of the EU which isn't the utopia the ins are portraying it to be, it's failing and shrinking.

Furthermore, I'm unsure whether Westminster knows how to govern Yorkshire, they certainly don't represent me or my interests, so I'm bloody well sure that being governed more and more by Brussels isn't what I want or need. I certainly don't want to see our sovereignty pick pocketed away by self serving Eurocrats and corrupt politicians who are making decisions based on hew best to feather their own post political career nests.'"


Whilst your post regarding some of the fastest growing economies being in the commonwealth is an interesting headline.
Most of these places are "developing" economies and of course they have faster growth than the more developed Euro nations.
It's utter nonsense to suggest that we can suddenly replace our trade partners with the likes of Burma, Mozambique, Tanzania etc
Of the fastest growing economies in the world, at the moment, only China and India are "big" players.
Many people suggest that Africa will be the next big market to open up and the large conglomerates are already "helping" some of these nations, you know, giving them cash to buy favour (typical hallmarks of capitalism), even the Chinese are investing there, so they can get ahead and have first shout for cheaper raw materials.

What I would like someone in favour of exiting the Eurozone to do, is to first of all explain what our, relationship is likely to be with our present trading partners in Europe and be honest about the costs of setting up trade agreements with them and then be equally honest about the benefits of setting up unilateral deals with say India & China.

The tariffs that are currently applied to these nation's, which were set up to protect Europe from these countries "dumping" cheap product over here are not perfect by any means but, it would be naive in the extreme to think that Britain could lose (or reduce) these tariffs and supply freely to our nearest large market (Europe).
Can you really see that being allowed to happen ?

It could possibly allow us to trade further a field but, is this really a winning situation.

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Quote: Wollo-Wollo-Wollo-Wayoo "For a German your English is very good.'"


Danke icon_smile.gif

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Quote: Bigboff "Yes ,children will be cleaning chimneys out,working pregnant women sacked and the minimum wage abolished.

There is one reason and one reason only I'm out,the fear of East European bricklayers walking on site willing to work for half the wage I earn.
Yes ,it's a small minded "Im all right jack attitude " in the bigger picture ,but that's life.
I suppose it doesn't matter anyway,because all building will cease if we leave because of the recession'"


It's small minded and "I'm all right jack attitude" (generally a racist scum bag) when the little guys stick up for his or her standard of living. This of course is through the eyes of the perceived morally and intellectual superiors. When a high earning government employee (or some kind of client of the state) does it it's a noble battle in protection of services against Evil Tory cuts. The reality is both cases people are just trying to protect their own pocket. The only difference is the latter think it has the right to tell the former what is good for them. Sneers and snobbery are the words that come to mind.

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Quote: wrencat1873 "The irony of your situation is that, without the population growth (largely from European migrants), there would be no house building going on.
The massive shortage in housing in due to population growth and of course, the lack of social housing due, to the council house sell off and lack of and meaningful replacement housing being built.'"


So population growth through immigration is official Government policy?

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Quote: King Street Cat "The last time I looked at this thread was on my mobile which doesn't have the ad blocker installed. Ironically there was a sponsored advert for the EU referendum from Richard Branson asking us to vote IN. Thanks for that multi-billionaire Richard, you're really on my level and I feel totally connected with you while you send emails from your own private island.

If us minions are going to be told how to vote, please don't take the loving mickey out of us!

Both sides are guilty of not telling the truth but I get the feeling the IN crowd have way more to lose than anyone else and they couldn't give a poop about the rest of us so long as they get the result that's best for them.'"


Branson is just another one of the global business and financial elite, what's is the interest for them most certainly isn't in the interest of the average Brit. I only hope the voters can put that connection in their heads on election day.

A political idealogical battle is been played out between continuing Globalisation and reducing the effectiveness of national Democracy. So far it's one way and if it goes too far it will end in tears. Without the right to hold to account your politicians they have no reason what so ever to do what is best for the people. The EU will treat the the UK people as nothing more than a tax farm to redistribute. Three major crisis are playing out at the moment and imo we have yet to see no way near the worst of the effects. The Southern EU debt crisis ( to a lesser effect our down debt problems), biggest mass migration of people in history and the quest to make Turkey a member of the EU. What these showdowns play out the people I want representing me are people that I can hold to account. Who can hold an unelected suite in Brussels to account? these politicians have no real check and balances on themselves. It's all about democracy for me and I think a lot of voters under-valuing our democracy.

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Quote: deeHell "So population growth through immigration is official Government policy?'"


I think that the government has been quite happy to see a certain level of population increase and yes, this help our GDP to increase.
However, it also puts a strain on infrastructure and services (especially at a time when there have been severe austerity cuts but, no, I don't think that it has been deliberate government policy.

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Quote: deeHell "Branson is just another one of the global business and financial elite'"


Without whom there would be no jobs for working class heroes to nobly toil at whilst being downtrodden and abused...

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Quote: deeHell "Branson is just another one of the global business and financial elite, what's is the interest for them most certainly isn't in the interest of the average Brit. I only hope the voters can put that connection in their heads on election day.

A political idealogical battle is been played out between continuing Globalisation and reducing the effectiveness of national Democracy. So far it's one way and if it goes too far it will end in tears. Without the right to hold to account your politicians they have no reason what so ever to do what is best for the people. The EU will treat the the UK people as nothing more than a tax farm to redistribute. Three major crisis are playing out at the moment and imo we have yet to see no way near the worst of the effects. The Southern EU debt crisis ( to a lesser effect our down debt problems), biggest mass migration of people in history and the quest to make Turkey a member of the EU. What these showdowns play out the people I want representing me are people that I can hold to account. Who can hold an unelected suite in Brussels to account? these politicians have no real check and balances on themselves. It's all about democracy for me and I think a lot of voters under-valuing our democracy.'"

You've actually hit the nail on the head regarding globalisation. The problem is that it's happening and it's going to happen even more. I personally hate some aspects of globalisation but I can't pick and choose between the bits I like and those I don't like and trying to stop it is like Canute trying to hold back the tide (he knew he couldn't do it). Migration is another facet of globalisation. Again, we won't be able to stop it (without ever more draconian measures and militaristic security - not the kind of country I want to live in). The EU cocked up badly with the refugee issue but Britain on its own won't be able to stop people entering the country any more than it can now. The world's changed and Britain's changed - we can't go back to the old days before the EU, safe, familiar and comfy as it may seem from 2016 (it wasn't by the way) - and, in my opinion, you don't solve global issues like trade, the environment, terrorism, animal welfare, migration etc on your own. You can only solve them by having influence and you have influence by being in the EU, at the heart of it, helping to decide the direction it goes in. The EU isn't undemocratic. It's ponderous and bureaucratic and needs changing in many respects but it's not undemocratic. And, as regards Turkey - they simply will not get in the EU any time soon and they will NEVER get in if just one member state vetoes the decision. Turkey is not an issue.

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Quote: bren2k "Without whom there would be no jobs for working class heroes to nobly toil at whilst being downtrodden and abused...'"


A bit of a misrepresentation of Branson's achievements I think. Democratic accountability must be a bad thing in your world.

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Quote: Kevs Head "You've actually hit the nail on the head regarding globalisation. The problem is that it's happening and it's going to happen even more. I personally hate some aspects of globalisation but I can't pick and choose between the bits I like and those I don't like and trying to stop it is like Canute trying to hold back the tide (he knew he couldn't do it). Migration is another facet of globalisation. Again, we won't be able to stop it (without ever more draconian measures and militaristic security - not the kind of country I want to live in). The EU cocked up badly with the refugee issue but Britain on its own won't be able to stop people entering the country any more than it can now. The world's changed and Britain's changed - we can't go back to the old days before the EU, safe, familiar and comfy as it may seem from 2016 (it wasn't by the way) - and, in my opinion, you don't solve global issues like trade, the environment, terrorism, animal welfare, migration etc on your own. You can only solve them by having influence and you have influence by being in the EU, at the heart of it, helping to decide the direction it goes in. The EU isn't undemocratic. It's ponderous and bureaucratic and needs changing in many respects but it's not undemocratic. And, as regards Turkey - they simply will not get in the EU any time soon and they will NEVER get in if just one member state vetoes the decision. Turkey is not an issue.'"


Who votes the EU commission into power who sets the agenda and whose interest do they act? I certainly don't remember giving them a mandate. I understand that Cyprus and Greece would veto Turkeys but whats to stop the EU giving them associate membership with full benefits? Nothing at all without the democratic means to remove them. They have no need to consider what the vast majority of the continent want, democracy is an hurdle to these bureaucrats. Without democracy all you have is violence as a means of political expression and with a treat of that come a oppressive form of government. 1984 comes to mind.

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The Commission is unelected but it doesn't make laws. Elected MEPs consider the Commission,s recommendations and vote accordingly. Turkey has to satisfy something like 30 conditions for entry. So far, after 10 years negotiation, they've satisfied precisely one! It's not going to happen soon. And, do you think the UK would vote to admit Turkey?

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Quote: Kevs Head "The Commission is unelected but it doesn't make laws. Elected MEPs consider the Commission,s recommendations and vote accordingly. Turkey has to satisfy something like 30 conditions for entry. So far, after 10 years negotiation, they've satisfied precisely one! It's not going to happen soon. And, do you think the UK would vote to admit Turkey?'"


It's government policy to encourage Turkeys membership.

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Quote: wrencat1873 "The irony of your situation is that, without the population growth (largely from European migrants), there would be no house building going on.
'"


Largely from European migrants?
Maybe from skilled migrants who could afford private new builds but open your eyes to see what "talent" is being let in!
I don't owe my living to low skilled migration.They are too high maintenance ,we have enough with our own low skilled population.

You are quite right about social housing though and availability.

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Quote: deeHell "A bit of a misrepresentation of Branson's achievements I think. Democratic accountability must be a bad thing in your world.'"


I just don't buy the dog-whistle soundbites about big business and the financial elite; I agree that there are issues around fair taxation and sharp practices that need to be addressed, but without entrepreneurs and wealth creators like Branson, the economy would collapse.

Ironically, we're in a stronger position to do that stuff as part of the EU - the French finance authority for example, just raided Google's offices for tax compliance offences.

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