All of the above.

Don't get me wrong, I agree we are a shadow of our former selves but sometimes you have to be realistic and, rather than just spout hyperbole in every post like a newspaper headline or radio soundbite, once in a while think about things like; why we haven't splashed the cash on 4-5 world-class players each season, or gotten Wayne Bennett as coach, or why we haven't seen the best out of every player in every game since *the miraculous season of 2006 when we won every game by 30+ points by playing entertaining and expansive rugby*

*Melodramatic

Makinson
Swift
Turner
Jones
Foster / Percival
Gaskell
Lomax

Could be a possible back line under Brown. Too inexperienced?

For me the names on the team-sheet are academic, I agree entirely with the thread title - something has to change and that something comes down to attitude.

3 times this season - THREE TIMES IN EIGHT WEEKS - Wigan have come for a war while we've come for a stroll in the park. These pampered prima-donnas, led by Mr Hot Air Mike Rush and his ridiculous assertion after the Cup game that we're "not far off" were a disgrace to the badge last night.

Everyone knows Saints are in a hole at the moment and that we lack quality. That's unavoidable now and it's not going to be corrected until next year. So when we have a lot of ball in their half and can't break them down, I can't bring myself to get annoyed - that's just the way it is until we sort out our halves and sign some strike in the threequarters. What really boils my blood is that we're incapable - too lazy, too unfit, or too soft - of matching their ferocity. They hunt in packs with 3 or 4 ripping and tearing in the tackle totally killing any forward momentum. When they carry the ball we get 1 or 2 haphazard, lazy arms allowing their wingers and at times half backs to make yards and win the floor. You have to wonder what the hell is going on when that happens.

Wigan are a solid team who work their absolute knackers off for each other and are willing to die to achieve their collective goals. If you aren't prepared to match that intensity, you have to look in the mirror and ask whether you deserve to be living the pampered lifestyle these players have. Hundreds of amateur players in this town run their blood to water and risk life and limb playing the game and end up out of pocket every week. Then go to work on Monday and graft. Most of our first team look happy just to get off the field in one piece after 80 minutes like rabbits in the headlights. They should be embarrassed of their 'efforts' last night pretty much from 1-17.

The PR Machine will go back into overdrive this week. They will come out and talk of needing to 'aim up' (daft Aussie-ism number 351) and 'make up for it' against Hull. What most of them don't seem to understand (and Wigan's players profoundly do understand) is how important these games are to the fans. You can't just 'make up for it' by winning a few games against the likes of Leeds and Hull.

Congratulations to Wigan. The only team that will stop them winning everything this year is themselves.

I don't see why. Makinson, Foster, Gaskell and Lomax have all played in Grand Finals. I wouldn't pick Swift in that list to be honest, I don't see any potential for him in the outside backs. I've never seen him play in the halves, but he's no winger.

I think that list highlights that we're going to have Gardner in the team for a few years yet, nothing in there to displace him, bar Makinson who we would all like to see at fullback.

I agree with that; our pack definitely has the ability.

If something is to change it needs to be in the backs.

And there was I thinking experience is a product of the [inumber of games played[/i. Clearly we can now dispense with this pretence, pick all our rookies for the next Grand Final and watch them turn into fully-fledged first teamers in the space of eighty minutes (or less).

Our problems at the moment come down to the fact that we've had mediocre coaching for the last 3.5 years, and a few players who think they run the place and have now left us with very much less than mediocre coaching until the end of the season. We desperately need a top coach, a few key signings and a change in attitude to be right back at the top again. We look to maybe have the first 2 in the bag and hopefully the 3rd will follow with the application of boots to backsides. Wholesale culling is unnecessary and would indeed knock us back years if it happened. Most of our current squad including most the usual hate targets are good enough to lift trophies again. The usual numpty calls for any U20 player we can get our hands on to get a shirt instead are depressing as usual. I'd be happy to write the rest of the season off and try a few youngsters in the team to see what they're made of, but entire 3/4 lines and halfback partnerships made up of kids would get smashed every game and have their careers crumble away into dust in no time. And at the end of the day we still only need to win 3 games at the end of the season to be "champions" after all - not likely with the current coaching incumbents, but stranger things have happened...

Your not far wrong sadly -

I'd take Patten over Wello , Broughton over Meli or Gardner, Moon over any of our centre's (apart from Jones as he looks like he has great potential) and Holdsworth or Matty Smith over Lance.

I remember now. You're the Crowman out of Worzel Gummidge. You must me given all the straw men you're churning out lately. Who are these "numpties" calling for "wholesale" replacement of first teamers by academy lads? I mean, several people have called for Shenton to be dropped in favour of Jones (who has looked [iat the very least[/i as capable whilst three times as enthusiastic). Then there's giving young Swift a chance - who with a double hat-trick has, you know, FORM to back him up.

Aside from that - who else? A few calls for Forster (never a bad idea to give a young prop some experience). Bringing back Foster (who already possesses plenty of experience) and of course Gaskell - who is the only fully functional half back at the club.

The truth is there are very few realistic academy options outside of those mentioned and everyone knows it. But carry on creating this fantasy world of wholesale persecution.

It's not so much the number of games played as the context. Every play off and grand final game played is worth 10 of a normal, low intensity SL game.

The likes of Foster and Makinson are established in the first team, they've been around the block enough times to be relied upon, given that the alternatives are no better and even more prone to errors. I'd go with youth in the backs next season, unless we can sign someone genuinely worth taking one of their places.

Oh do come now - read any of dozens of posts on here and bask in the impassioned calls for Wellens, Meli, Shenton, Wheeler, Gardner and Hohaia to be run out of the team on a rail immediately. How do you think these same people would propose we replace all 6 of these players exactly?

Hint: it's not with "straw men"....