We're so slow and lacking in ideas it unbelievable. Yes we played well against Leeds but they are not in the same league as Wigan who just look at our weaknesses and expose them. Surely a better team would be:

Hohaia - terrible at SO, FB would let him play how he wants to.
Gardner - the fact he's our best winger says a lot.
Wheeler - awful today but not finished yet.
Jones - showed more in the couple of games he's had than shenton ever has.
Makinson - never lets anyone down and is very quick.
Gaskell - we need a half back that can control a game and kick.
Lomax - looked miles better last year playing with Gaskell.
Perry - has been improving recently.
Roby - still best in the league with tomkins IMO.
Puletua - we are a different side with him playing well.
Lafranchi - SR more natural to him also makes our pack bigger.
Soliola - shocker today but still been one of the best so far this season.
Wilkin - needs to improve but still good enough.

Shenton, flannery, meli should not play again. If we had more wingers I'd also give FB spot to makinson and get rid of hohaia as well.

You could go that way, but at the moment Wheeler has actually had a run of games and well is starting to look vulnerable in defense. Not something I thought earlier in the season as I was impessed by his evasiveness.

But now it's dropped balls, defensive frailities, and less attack that is standing out. Are we now saying our halves can't pass right or left to excuse the centres?

That side would do no better. It's our recruitment and poor retention decisions over the past 5 years that is costing us. I wince everytime we have a team sheet read out, there is nothing any coach could do to make that lot win a trophy.

Wellens is simply awful, contributing nothing
Gardner and Meli are terrible
Wheeler is shocking, Shenton devoid of confidence and being offered to other clubs
Hohaia is the worst signing the club has made in decades

We've got the worst backline in the competition, bar possibly London and Wakey. I'd swap our 1-7 with Salford in a heartbeat.

Everything at the club has been about the stadium. A worthy subject of Eamon's time no doubt and one that ultimately makes the club far stronger than winning a couple of trophies but still being at KR would have. We've been so distracted that we've made poor choices in every aspect of the game, but primarily coaching and recruitment. Just about every rugby decision made by the club since Daniel Anderson left has been a mistake and we're suffering the consequences of that now.

There is not going be some miraculous turn around under Brown either, it'll take us years to become truly competitive again. He's got an incredibly difficult job ahead of him and needs to changed pretty much everything at the club from top to bottom. Whether he'll get the chance to do that remains to be seen however. We're in trouble and I'd be amazed if we won a trophy in the next 5 years.

There are no excuses. Wheeler has been ok in most games, some defensive errors and he was awful today. But he is in no way compable to the ------ of shenton. Every time he gets the ball the attack dies. Out of shenton, wheeler, jones and meli, wheeler and jones would be my centres.

Whilst you make the odd good point, your melodrama is growing increasingly tedious.

Melodrama? Do you disagree with any of what I posted? Do you rate the current squad any higher?

That brown will have to change the club top to bottom, would seam a little over the top. Are we now binning Roby, Sia, TP, Lomax???

Are we better now than when Royce was in charge?

I would argue a new coach can change alot. I don't know if you have ever worked in an enviroment with poor leadership, but a new leader can change alot.

I think we have a coaching team that are effective against lower opposition, but when faced with Wigan do not have the experience to get the team out there ready to compete at a level close enough.

I completely agree with Saddened with regards to swapping 1-7. We have the odd individually better player but as a unit Salford's is better, as much as it pains me to say it.

1. Patten v Wellens - Patten
2. Broughton v Gardner - Broughton
3. Gleeson v Shenton - Gleeson
4. Moon v Wheeler - Moon (Although I'd probably stick Wheeler in the other centre spot)
5. Williams v Meli - Williams
6. Holdsworth v Hohaia - Holdsworth
7. Smith v Lomax - Lomax (but I'd prefer Lomax at 6 with Smith at 7)

Predictions of impending Götterdämmerung are way off the mark. Provided Gaskell and Makinson can achieve what I expect at stand-off and full back we are only two good signings away from being contenders.

After all, the pack is fundamentally sound. And that's more than half the battle won. Hell, just getting Lomax back to full confidence and playing well will give us an enormous boost.

All of the above.

Don't get me wrong, I agree we are a shadow of our former selves but sometimes you have to be realistic and, rather than just spout hyperbole in every post like a newspaper headline or radio soundbite, once in a while think about things like; why we haven't splashed the cash on 4-5 world-class players each season, or gotten Wayne Bennett as coach, or why we haven't seen the best out of every player in every game since *the miraculous season of 2006 when we won every game by 30+ points by playing entertaining and expansive rugby*

*Melodramatic

Makinson
Swift
Turner
Jones
Foster / Percival
Gaskell
Lomax

Could be a possible back line under Brown. Too inexperienced?

For me the names on the team-sheet are academic, I agree entirely with the thread title - something has to change and that something comes down to attitude.

3 times this season - THREE TIMES IN EIGHT WEEKS - Wigan have come for a war while we've come for a stroll in the park. These pampered prima-donnas, led by Mr Hot Air Mike Rush and his ridiculous assertion after the Cup game that we're "not far off" were a disgrace to the badge last night.

Everyone knows Saints are in a hole at the moment and that we lack quality. That's unavoidable now and it's not going to be corrected until next year. So when we have a lot of ball in their half and can't break them down, I can't bring myself to get annoyed - that's just the way it is until we sort out our halves and sign some strike in the threequarters. What really boils my blood is that we're incapable - too lazy, too unfit, or too soft - of matching their ferocity. They hunt in packs with 3 or 4 ripping and tearing in the tackle totally killing any forward momentum. When they carry the ball we get 1 or 2 haphazard, lazy arms allowing their wingers and at times half backs to make yards and win the floor. You have to wonder what the hell is going on when that happens.

Wigan are a solid team who work their absolute knackers off for each other and are willing to die to achieve their collective goals. If you aren't prepared to match that intensity, you have to look in the mirror and ask whether you deserve to be living the pampered lifestyle these players have. Hundreds of amateur players in this town run their blood to water and risk life and limb playing the game and end up out of pocket every week. Then go to work on Monday and graft. Most of our first team look happy just to get off the field in one piece after 80 minutes like rabbits in the headlights. They should be embarrassed of their 'efforts' last night pretty much from 1-17.

The PR Machine will go back into overdrive this week. They will come out and talk of needing to 'aim up' (daft Aussie-ism number 351) and 'make up for it' against Hull. What most of them don't seem to understand (and Wigan's players profoundly do understand) is how important these games are to the fans. You can't just 'make up for it' by winning a few games against the likes of Leeds and Hull.

Congratulations to Wigan. The only team that will stop them winning everything this year is themselves.

I don't see why. Makinson, Foster, Gaskell and Lomax have all played in Grand Finals. I wouldn't pick Swift in that list to be honest, I don't see any potential for him in the outside backs. I've never seen him play in the halves, but he's no winger.

I think that list highlights that we're going to have Gardner in the team for a few years yet, nothing in there to displace him, bar Makinson who we would all like to see at fullback.

I agree with that; our pack definitely has the ability.

If something is to change it needs to be in the backs.

And there was I thinking experience is a product of the [inumber of games played[/i. Clearly we can now dispense with this pretence, pick all our rookies for the next Grand Final and watch them turn into fully-fledged first teamers in the space of eighty minutes (or less).