Okay - just to be clear...

At no point have I defended the actions of Israel. Quite the opposite. At no point have I condemned the [iPalestinians[/i for anything. My sole point has been that if we - quite correctly - condemn the Israeli government for targeting civilian populations then we cannot simply ignore or condone Hamas using the exact same tactics.

Apparently this somehow equates to support of Israel. I'm damned if I understand why, but there you go.

As for your question about apartheid South Africa, I'm afraid to say that at that time I was almost militantly ignorant of the facts. My recollection of my attitude at the time is of an incredibly shallow 'apartheid bad, Nelson Mandela good' naivety. Not something I'm proud of but I'm not about to pretend otherwise.

Feel free to provide supporting quotes. I haven't double-checked everything I've typed but I'm pretty sure I've used the word Hamas rather than Palestinians. I certainly did when making my initial point.

What's more likely is that some on here, possibly you included, see anything other than total agreement with their own view as automatically being the exact opposite view and therefore read stuff into posts that simply isn't there.


And Hamas is the duly elected government of Gaza, with the support of many Palestinians. How does this differ?

I know exactly what you mean apart from the boobs bit.

It is also pleasing to see that by page 20 of this thread some people appear to be seeing things slightly differently. That is not say that they were wrong in the first place just imho not even handed on the issue.

Both on [iThe Andrew Marr Show[/i this morning.
I can already hear the line the pair of them are going to trot out.

I agree, if someone were doing that, they would look ridiculous. As i havent seen anyone yet do that here, its just you looking ridiculous making excuses for murder.

You would think they would change their charter then wouldnt you. Maybe pull back on that blatantly anti-semitic language included within it, stop talking about the glory of killing Israelis. That statement would look a lot more realistic if Hamas foreign minister wasnt saying [i "I dreams of hanging a huge map of the world on the wall at my Gaza home which does not show Israel on it," he said. "I hope that our dream to have our independent state on all historic Palestine (including Israel)."

"This dream will become real one day. I'm certain of this because there is no place for the state of Israel on this land," said al-Zahar.[/i at the same time, and they werent holding an Israeli soldier hostage whilst saying it. But thats ok because its brave little palestine doing it, not of course, Big Bad Israel
Im not apoligising for anyone. This is why i dont know what you are talking about, you seem to be reading different words to the ones im writing.

I agree, thats why I've repeatedly reffered to Hamas, the reason it was 'Palestinian murder' is because Minty justifies the murder as acceptable because they are palestinian.

And? Is this supposed to justify the brave resistance warriors placing bombs on civilian buses and bravely running away? Or who these modern day homeric heros lobbing rockets at schools?

They could deliver their bombs by unmanned drones, Apache helicopter's, smart rockets systems, satellite or any of the following F-15E Strike Eagle, F-15 Eagle, F-16 Fighting Falcon, IAI Seascan, Eurocopter Panther etc...then that way there would never be any civilian deaths. In fact they would be able to insist that they do not target civilians and any deaths are unfortunate COLLATERAL DAMAGE

No winners, only losers.

[urlhttp://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20466027[/url

Correct. Shame both sides were shouting about 'victory' in the aftermath of the ceasefire announcement. With attitudes like that there's little hope.

My point a few pages back, there is no hope when the crimes of the parents will paid for by the future generations of children, all the point scoring on here is just as pathetic, we as a nation are partly culpable just as others are

What this does show is you cannot control other nations and other groups of people , if they decide not to live together nobody will make them

Possibly time for the "Ian Hunter Solution"?

Read Hunter's 1973 "Diary of a Rock & Roll Star" and you'll see his proposed solution to "The Irish Problem". Basically he suggested taking all Northern Irish kids away from their parents for two generations and bringing them up in an environment free from deep-seated, institutional hatred, then releasing them back back into society.

So long as Saudi arabia exits then there will never be a solution. I was working in saudi in 2008 when the Gaza war erupted.. All the saudi technicians were sat around the Tv watching it, whooping and cheering as the rockets were being fired into Israel. The funniest thing was when this Pakistani engineer turned up started working in the section where I was. He was joining in as well watching the missiles being fired. It all changed when he mentioned to the saudis about them going to Gaza to fight with the palestinians. He never turned up again. The Saudis are taught in school the Jews don't have a home. The arab governments may say they support the palestinians, but it's in words only. They don't want anything to do with them.

Thank goodness we're continuing to help arm the bunch of bonkers Medievalists in Saudi, then.

You're doing a damned fine imitation of an Israeli apologist.

What you're doing is pretending that this is some sort of even struggle and that those naughty Muzzies are being naughty by lobbing rockets randomly.

Interestingly, you yet again ignore the question of just what you expect an imprisoned, bombed, shot at etc people to do.

Oh. That's right. Not lob a few rockets in frustration and anger. Just let themselves be bombed and persecuted and wait until these things stop. Because obviously the state of Israel fully intends to stop them and help create a two-state solution sometime, err, soon. Ish.

If by magic a two state solution happened tomorrow and Israel conceded to Palestinian demands, do you think Hamas would stop attacks on Israel. I personally doubt it would make one iota of difference, they would still attack regularly until their aim of total annihilation was achieved.

It's ironic that Israel helped fund and develop Hamas as a counterweight to the mostly secular Fatah of Yasser Arafat.

How often has history shown big powers getting their ar[is[/ies bitten by the dog they previously fed?

I never knew that. I don't think irony even begins to over it.


Oooh - I know this one. Is it 'every single time'?

So you're saying that it's OK to kill civilians as long as you're the smaller side in an uneven struggle? Only I'm not sure that my moral compass - or International Law for that matter - makes that distinction.

No i am not, you just cant stand any criticism of your pet cause.

No I’m not, I know im not because I really don’t care about how ‘even’ the struggle is, I find it quite moronic that people like you are keeping some kind of score, or that there should be some kind of equity in war.


I don’t see why yet again you are trying to down play the attempted murder of people, of civilians. ‘lobbing a few rockets’ isn’t some kids vandalising the local park, this is explosive weaponry, designed and used to indiscriminately kill and maim, this isnt done out of frustration or anger, this isnt some husband coming home and kicking his wifes lovers head in, it is murder, and attempted murder. It is a person, taking the time and effort to launch rockets and kill indiscriminitely, being Isreali or Palestinian doesnt make that action any better of worse.
I cant tell whether you do this because you are an actual mental who hates jews/Israelis or you have the rather patronising viewpoint that we should Palestinians should be held to a lower expectation.

No. I'm saying that you're playing at moral equivalence – and that you still have not bothered to suggest just what you imagine those Palestinians should do in your nice, clean, imaginary world where they don't lob rockets in frustration and anger.

It's a redundant exercise in pleasantries to pretend that you can finger wag at both sides equally, when the situation is utterly unequal, and when you don't appear to have any suggestion of how to change that situation.

So I repeat again: in order to avoid your condemnation, precisely what do you think the Palestinians should do?

Let's face it, when youngsters do throw stones, they get shot.

Not frustration? Well obviously. After all, they're not effectively in a prison, being fired on while there. They shouldn't remotely respond to the aggressor in this situation. Of course not.

I keep looking for your ideas on just what the Palestinians should do.

I haven't spotted any yet.

Makes the rhetoric easier for you, I suppose.

And how very unoriginal: 'Oh, oh look – you're probably an anti-semite!'

Do you also accuse people like Gideon Levy, Shlomo Sand and Ralph Schoenman of being 'self-hating Jews'? Along with the likes of B'Tselem and Independent Jewish Voice and many more.

And you call me "moronic".

As opposed to all the evidence that the state of Israel has ever wanted anything less than the removal of all Palestinians?

Really?

What evidence is there that the state of Israel has ever been sincere or serious about a long-lasting peace that involved a two-state solution? Seriously – what evidence is there?

Maybe the Palestinians have got off lightly?

Then dont throw stones, whats the worst thing that happens there? Stones are no longer thrown? big f@cking whoop.


The aggressor isn’t the kids in schools hit by rockets, they aren’t the families in their houses hit by rockets, they aren’t civilians on buses which are bombed, they aren’t the young couples having dinner in restaurants in Tel Aviv The civilians in Israel are no more ‘the aggressors’ when going about their daily business, than the civilians of Palestine are ‘terrorists’ whilst going about theirs.
Not murder people. Im not asking for the moon on a stick here sweetheart, im not asking for them to be some kind of angels, im not mistaking the Palestinians for a rag-tag bunch of Ned Flanders types, simply asking that they don’t murder people, don’t glorify murdering people, and don’t whine when the people they are trying to murder do it better than them. Incompetance isnt moral mitigation.
Your double standards do seem to indicate that, as I said, i could be wrong, you could see the Palestinians as lesser people with a lesser standard to live up to, either way, it is stupid to apply a double standard.

Why? Do they say that the murder of Jews is acceptable?

If the yarmulke fits..........

Because you can't even suggest a tiny thing that they should do to change the situation, can you? Except 'don't do naughty' things, children. Let the big bully keep on kicking you – but don't dare even make a gesture back.'

Still not even an attempt to explain just what you'd have the Palestinians do while they're being murdered in the prison that the state of Israel is keeping them in. As for this:

"... and don’t whine when the people they are trying to murder do it better than them."

This is precisely the f**king point, you apologist for a neo-fascist regime that is aiming at ethnic cleansing. They didn't f**king start it, and the people that did have no intention in stopping until they're wiped out or driven out of their homes.

If the coalscuttle helmet fits, chucky wucky ...