Wouldn't we all. But fast forward 60 years; you've still had no satisfaction through formal methods. The courts have made judgements – but these have been ignored. Entire nations actually put all the blame on you.

And then, to cap it all, you're stuck in prison – and when you actually respond, you're still being blamed.

And that's without pointing out that those imprisoning you have killed vastly more – and I mean "vastly" – than you have. Including children and other innocent civilians, numbered in the thousands – and it's still you that's to blame.

Really, the propaganda has worked well, hasn't it?

Strange, isn't it, that when moderates are humiliated, people will turn to more radical leaders?

Who'd a thunk that, eh?

You could be mistaken for imagining that, say, the lessons of Iran had been learned. No?

But well done for continuing to fall for the Israeli propaganda machine. Still, at least those Israelis are mostly white and not a bunch of sand n*gger rag heads, eh?

The Zionist terrorists never poisoned wells, shot people in the back of the head, drove people from their homes etc etc. And if they did, in your book that's all hunky dory.

Because that's what you're saying is acceptable. Well done.

That makes it ok for them to launch indiscriminately at civilian populations. Is a Jewish child any more likely to understand the history of the area than an Arab child. Your post seemed to only be concerned about Arab children, when most people are concerned about innocents on both sides. Whether you like it or not, Israel is going nowhere and until both sides can sit down and talk instead of lobbing rockets at each other, deaths of those who are not in control will happen. What do you think would happen if the Palestinians got hold of any serious weaponry such as a dirty bomb, or worse a nuke, I doubt they would use it as a bargaining chip, they would use it without hesitation. Israel has a right to exist, which certain factions in the region will not accept and they also have a right to defend themselves against attacks, it just happens that they have a more sophisticated nal and better trained military personnel which makes losses on the Palastinian side more likely.

Most outsiders want a two state solution in the region, but I would hazard a guess that if by some miracle this was achieved the radicals on the Arab side would still carry on attacking Israel until they wiped everyone out.

As long as both side indoctrinate their children in the mistakes of the past, the future will be full of the blood of both sides

You think that the condemnation of taking innocent civilian lives is all down to propaganda? Really? Or that lives can be measured in some king of balance and it's OK to kill innocent people as long as the other side have killed more? You're better than that, surely?

Killing civilians is wrong. I don't care how righteous the cause is - and there can be little argument that Palestinians have a righteous cause - once you start targeting civilians you've crossed the line.

What I find - let's say disappointing to be polite - is people who will happily condemn attacks on civilians by one side but ignore the same tactics when used by another. Or, say, condemn civilian casualties in Iraq and Afghanistan but say nothing when Hamas kill Israeli civilians.

If killing civilians is wrong then it's wrong at all times and in all places. Simple.

[url=http://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2012/11/23/roy/sctFniw6Wn2n9nTdxZ91RJ/story.html?s_campaign=8315What the apologists like to ignore/forget.[/url

Eloquently put. I was beginning to think there was something wrong with me being concerned about killings on both sides, rather than thinking killing innocents is OK so long as the end result was something I agreed with.

Read the link from the [iBoston Globe[/i I've just posted to see what the Israeli state has been doing ever since the last onslaught on [aa blockaded population[/a.

Because if you think it hasn't been doing anything, you're very, very wrong.



Well, looking at the numbers of those killed, there's one hell of a lot more Palestinian children have been killed. And then people try to play moral equivalence.

'Dirty weapons'? Like the phosphorus the Israelis have used on Gaza?

At least the sonic booms that caused miscarriages weren't 'dirty', eh?

This was not defence.

No. I don't. But I think it's massively stupid to actually take account of the situation that the Palestinians are in, in reality, and then wonder that some of them don't lash out and wring hands when they do.

What do you expect? Politicians have failed them; the West ignores them and stops even mild criticism at the UN being passed. So politics clearly isn't much of a route.

They're effectively in a prison – and being shot at, while inside that prison.

Read the [iBoston Glove[/i article – and then come back and explain what you think they should do against a state that is ideologically committed to ethnic cleansing.

Zionism is a far-right, nationalist ideology. Don't forget that a former member on these forums was not only a BNP supporter but a self-declared 'Christian-Zionist'. That should tell you a lot.

And as Desmond Tutu has said, what the Israeli state is enforcing is a form of apartheid. It wasn't acceptable in South Africa and it's no more acceptable in the Middle East.

Before the end of apartheid, were you condemning the ANC for its military campaign (and it was a damn sight more organised than what anyone in the Gaza is managing)?

Sometimes defending yourself means you need to go on the offensive, nature of conflict I'm afraid.

I agree that the numbers are much larger on the Palestinian side, but you seem to have no sympathy for dead Israeli civilians, judging by your posts it's all about Palaetinians. Maybe I am wrong, but a blood covered child or civilian adult is the same to me no matter what god they pray to.

Great. Glad to see you finally understanding what the Palestinians are going through.

Have you read that article yet?

I have never not understood what the Palestinians are going through, I just don't think we can ignore what they do to achieve their aims.

No I haven't read the article, but I will. I am just skipping in and out while doing paid work at the moment.

We'd have only been allowed to be outraged if they'd used mustard gas, Sarin and Tabun like Saddam did against the Kurds.

How do you know what they are going though? Have you lived there?

Have you?

FWIW, I do believe that the ultimate resolution has to be a two-state one. But nothing I've seen from the state of Israel over some decades suggests that they are meaningfully remotely interested in that. And now we have the US saying that it will withdraw any aid from the Palestinians (which is miniscule by comparison with how much it props up the state of Israel), if the Palestinians dare to go to the UN and ask to be called a state.

Lobbing rockets at random into Israel is, in my opinion, a crass and counterproductive tactic.

But then again, I'm not imprisoned on a tiny bit of land, blockaded in, being subjected to regular raids and attacks, and haven't had my home stolen from me and then been expected to grovel to those who stole it.

And it frankly flabbergasts me that people don't realise this reality. The UK helps to arm the state of Israel. David Miliband made a decision, while in government, to continue that. William Hague says it's all only the fault of one side.

And that's just a snapshot of UK reaction: what can the Palestinians do?

In the wake of WWII, very few Jewish refugees were allowed asylum in European nations west of Germany/the Iron Curtain – certainly in relation to the numbers of non-Jewish refugees. The main tactic was to create a Jewish state so that those Jewish refugees would go there (indeed, as promised by the 1916 Balfour Declaration).

So there is an argument that, in fact, deciding to inflict an imperialist 'solution' onto the Middle East was actually a subtle continuation of anti-semitism – and was certainly inherently racist. But okay, we're too far down the line to change that.

So okay, where do we go from here? That's the crucial question.

But we cannot ignore the history and we have to challenge the perception of Israeli 'defence', which leads many people to end up siding with Goliath against David.

^

Wot he said.

No.

For the second time, have you?

I know people who have. I know people who have visited. I know people who have worked there.

[url=http://www.scriptonitedaily.org/2012/11/time-to-call-spade-spade.htmlA very good piece from one of them.[/url

You just sound ridiculous making allowances and excuses for Palestinian murder.

Im not sure what you think about Hamas charter is Israeli propaganda.

What the flying f@ck are you talking about?

Nowhere near as "ridiculous" as someone supporting neo-fascists pursuing a policy of ethnic cleansing.



Get with the times, boy. [url=http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/1522553/Hamas-U-turn-on-Israels-right-to-exist.htmlHamas agreed that Israel had a right to exist in 2006[/url.



Thank you for illustrating so perfectly that you haven't a clue who it is you're acting as an apologist for.

You happily witter about how awful those nasty Palestinians are, without a clue about what has been done to the Palestinian people for 60-odd years – and as though they should simply run away like the "dogs" that Ben Guerion described them as.

Racist apologist.

You do realise that Hamas do not represent all Palestinians, only those in Gaza? The principle party in the West Bank is Fatah. To imply that "Palestinian Murder" and Hamas activities are one in the same is disingenuous. Hamas Murder would be a more accurate interpretation.

WHen Minty talks about "The Zionist terrorists never poisoned wells, shot people in the back of the head, drove people from their homes etc etc." she is talking about the following types of activities:

[urlhttp://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/poisoning-the-village-wells-1.137154[/url

[urlhttp://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/nov/23/palestinian-shot-by-israeli-forces-gaza[/url

[urlhttp://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/F3C5978B53AAD6C8852579E4004FECA7[/url

Here to help

Nice one, Soldiers in Blue.



I find it quite extraordinary that so many people don't seem to know that the very foundation of the state of Israel was based on what we would readily call 'terrorist' activities. And those terrorists were seriously calculating in their biological warfare, for instance – they were not simply lobbing rockets in anger.

Some years ago, I was chatting with a guy who'd worked on Fleet Street for years. He remembered how, one day, one of his colleagues burst into the office, almost hysterical, sweating etc, and screaming that he'd just seen a terrorist walking down the street.

When they calmed the bloke down and got to the bottom of it, this was a man who'd served in Palestine, as it was, (he'd been an officer, incidentally) and the man he'd seen, in London, was Moshe Dayan.

Just to reiterate: I personally believe that a two-state solution is the only way forward, ultimately. But the one-sided nature of the condemnation, and the lack of any comprehension of what the Palestinians are faced with, on a daily basis, gets right on my tits. And they're not small tits.

A distinction I've been very careful to draw throughout this thread.

Similarly the Israeli government does not represent all Israeli citizens.

If you say so, some may beg to differ.



Well actually it does doesn't it as the Israelis have elected their Government and many Israelis support their government's actions.