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| FORUMS > Wakefield Trinity > Wakey express breaking news re: Newmarket |
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| Quote: newgroundb4wakey "Take all the other arguments away from it, the s106, the PI, the ownership of BV or NM, the previous regimes mistakes or misadministration. If you truly have red, white and blue running through your veins would you rather gaze at that rectangle of green that all the trin greats have graced over the years or would you rather step into the unknown of NM. If they could devise some sort of scheme to compensate the residents near NM this BV scheme sounds the best option by far in the opinion of a genuine neutral Cas fan. ![]()
I take your point and it is an idealistic view... my worry is that we (as a club and fans) have been manipulated and, although we now find ourselves in a position of potential benefit... the acceptance of that benefit is very likely to dissadvantage or hurt another area of the community.
I honour people like TRB and his compadres, as I do to the guys who are working their socks off at the ground now.... and others who slave tirelessly and quietly in the background... they have acted and act with genuine integrity and fortitude throughout... unlike some of the hangers on who have resurfaced with evangelistic zeal since the agenda changed.
If a community sports facility is still planned and will be a part of the NM development, then I stand down and recind my argument.
but at the moment it seems to me that our gain will be at the significant detriment of others, and that is unacceptable.
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Quote: Old Blighty "I have been mulling this over for a few days now...
And in black and white terms here's how I see it.
The developers at Newmarket used the club and it's loyal fans to get planning permission for a huge money making venture. All along knowing that they could slip in a get out clause they could use if nobody noticed... Nobody noticed and they did put it in and are using it!
We as a club and it's fans steamrollered the local community opinion in the genuine desire to support the club in its need for a new ground and the broader community in the provision of fantastic sports facilities amongst the industry. Within this we pressured the planners until it was supported and eventually passed.
Because of the contractual clause the developers are now proposing to buy and redevelop a crumbling ground in a slum area of the city... We are now proposing to abandon our original principals, turn away from the affected community, let the developers make more by developing the proposed sports facilities in industrial units.
I think I would rather Trinity played forever in a crap heap than get Bellevue redeveloped under those terms...
The 'what's in it for me' and 'I'm alright jack' attitude of society today really makes me sick.'"
I do get your point and although there is some truth in what you say though IMO it's a fairly extreme viewpoint.
Just a few crucial things to clarify as I see it…based on ratification of course.
1: The developer will put the same cash into BV as he would NM - so in pure money terms no shafting will have taken place.
2: It's simple economics in that the agreed plan due to the economic climate has become very difficult to see through with the profit margins shareholders expected. YC has protected themselves and their shareholders against this eventuality and have shifted their plans to accommodate - that's business.
3: We could make YC see through NM in the courts but truth is they could just walk away and cut their losses. Probably selling the land on to another developer who would eventually make it pay. All this would take years we as a club and a city don't have.
4: The community element as far as I'm aware will remain minus the stadium. I believe the 4g pitch and floodlights ect will remain on a smaller part of the NM site - I don't believe YC can get out of that but we shall see.
Truth is for me it's all about offering Wakefield a community stadium in a reasonable time frame - and where it is in reality is fairly irrelevant - bar a few technical issues that are not the end of the world. In all honesty I can't see what the Trust could do other than push YC down this route even if it's the lesser option - at least it could happen before most of us die.
From a personal note BV has always been my favoured option even though I understand the compelling argument for NM. However after the collapse of Thornes we'd of bitten anyones hand off for a redevelopment of BV, same as we bit YC's hand off for NM - we were stuffed then and we still are now to a lesser degree, we simply can't be choosey. I think YC's offer if it turns out right is a great offer.
Finally - I'm not suggesting for one minute that this was YC's or the Trusts original intention so it is reflected glory but….
…can you think of anywhere more needing this Stadium than depressed area like BV. If ever anywhere needed a focal point redevelopment to bring in commerce and serve the community it's there. A genuinely well redeveloped BV owned by the trust would be such an asset to build new better community on. Is it not incredibly fitting that the club that has called that area home for 150 years may well provide the catalyst for this.
To me that's far better than some souless lego stadium on the edge of the city miles from anyone and anywhere. Just my opinion.
This is Sir Rodney's take, sound fairly confident to me 
www.wakefieldexpress.co.uk/news/ ... UI.twitter |
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Quote: Old Blighty "I have been mulling this over for a few days now...
And in black and white terms here's how I see it.
The developers at Newmarket used the club and it's loyal fans to get planning permission for a huge money making venture. All along knowing that they could slip in a get out clause they could use if nobody noticed... Nobody noticed and they did put it in and are using it!
We as a club and it's fans steamrollered the local community opinion in the genuine desire to support the club in its need for a new ground and the broader community in the provision of fantastic sports facilities amongst the industry. Within this we pressured the planners until it was supported and eventually passed.
Because of the contractual clause the developers are now proposing to buy and redevelop a crumbling ground in a slum area of the city... We are now proposing to abandon our original principals, turn away from the affected community, let the developers make more by developing the proposed sports facilities in industrial units.
I think I would rather Trinity played forever in a crap heap than get Bellevue redeveloped under those terms...
The 'what's in it for me' and 'I'm alright jack' attitude of society today really makes me sick.'"
I do get your point and although there is some truth in what you say though IMO it's a fairly extreme viewpoint.
Just a few crucial things to clarify as I see it…based on ratification of course.
1: The developer will put the same cash into BV as he would NM - so in pure money terms no shafting will have taken place.
2: It's simple economics in that the agreed plan due to the economic climate has become very difficult to see through with the profit margins shareholders expected. YC has protected themselves and their shareholders against this eventuality and have shifted their plans to accommodate - that's business.
3: We could make YC see through NM in the courts but truth is they could just walk away and cut their losses. Probably selling the land on to another developer who would eventually make it pay. All this would take years we as a club and a city don't have.
4: The community element as far as I'm aware will remain minus the stadium. I believe the 4g pitch and floodlights ect will remain on a smaller part of the NM site - I don't believe YC can get out of that but we shall see.
Truth is for me it's all about offering Wakefield a community stadium in a reasonable time frame - and where it is in reality is fairly irrelevant - bar a few technical issues that are not the end of the world. In all honesty I can't see what the Trust could do other than push YC down this route even if it's the lesser option - at least it could happen before most of us die.
From a personal note BV has always been my favoured option even though I understand the compelling argument for NM. However after the collapse of Thornes we'd of bitten anyones hand off for a redevelopment of BV, same as we bit YC's hand off for NM - we were stuffed then and we still are now to a lesser degree, we simply can't be choosey. I think YC's offer if it turns out right is a great offer.
Finally - I'm not suggesting for one minute that this was YC's or the Trusts original intention so it is reflected glory but….
…can you think of anywhere more needing this Stadium than depressed area like BV. If ever anywhere needed a focal point redevelopment to bring in commerce and serve the community it's there. A genuinely well redeveloped BV owned by the trust would be such an asset to build new better community on. Is it not incredibly fitting that the club that has called that area home for 150 years may well provide the catalyst for this.
To me that's far better than some souless lego stadium on the edge of the city miles from anyone and anywhere. Just my opinion.
This is Sir Rodney's take, sound fairly confident to me
www.wakefieldexpress.co.uk/news/ ... UI.twitter | |
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| Quote: vastman "…can you think of anywhere more needing this Stadium than depressed area like BV. If ever anywhere needed a focal point redevelopment to bring in commerce and serve the community it's there. A genuinely well redeveloped BV owned by the trust would be such an asset to build new better community on. Is it not incredibly fitting that the club that has called that area home for 150 years may well provide the catalyst for this.'"
I've made my thoughts on this clear, so I won't bang on; suffice it to say I'm in total agreement with Old Blighty.
This bit though, I think is idealistic in the extreme; the refurbishment of BV will have absolutely no positive effect on the surrounding community and certainly won't serve as a focal point - focal points in Agbrigg are mosques, community centres and polish supermarkets - rugby league doesn't feature. What it will do however, is guarantee that they'll continue to be blighted by inconsiderate and inappropriate parking every other weekend throughout the summer, in perpetuity. | | | |
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| Quote: bren2k "I've made my thoughts on this clear, so I won't bang on; suffice it to say I'm in total agreement with Old Blighty.
This bit though, I think is idealistic in the extreme; the refurbishment of BV will have absolutely no positive effect on the surrounding community and certainly won't serve as a focal point - focal points in Agbrigg are mosques, community centres and polish supermarkets - rugby league doesn't feature. What it will do however, is guarantee that they'll continue to be blighted by inconsiderate and inappropriate parking every other weekend throughout the summer, in perpetuity.'"
Well Bren your the world expert on everything so of course I'm wrong and idealistic - don't know why I bothered for the last 10 years.
Perhaps you'd like to take over from Sir Rodney, TRB and IA and give them a break, I reckon you'd sort it in a week.
If that sounds petulant I'm sorry but I'm only taking my lead from you  | | |
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It does sound a bit petulant, Bren2K has every right to be sceptical and also makes a valid point even though I don't agree with him on a couple of things.
Firstly, the total revamp of BV could help trigger a wider clean up of the immediate area
Secondly, the residents living around the stadium moved there in the knowledge that Wakefield Trinity play their games nearby, I doubt they were ever promised that one day Trinity would move somewhere else.
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| Quote: vastman "Well Bren your the world expert on everything so of course I'm wrong and idealistic - don't know why I bothered for the last 10 years.
Perhaps you'd like to take over from Sir Rodney, TRB and IA and give them a break, I reckon you'd sort it in a week.
If that sounds petulant I'm sorry but I'm only taking my lead from you ![]()
Don't be a big baby Vasty; I haven't seen Sir Rodney, TRB or IA suggest that a refurbished BV would be the catalyst for a socio-economic regeneration in Agbrigg - only you suggested that and whilst it's a nice thought, it's pie in the sky.
I understand the need for those who are involved to dance to YC's tune, for fear of upsetting them; I don't have to agree with it though.
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| Quote: vastman "Well Bren your the world expert on everything so of course I'm wrong and idealistic - don't know why I bothered for the last 10 years.
Perhaps you'd like to take over from Sir Rodney, TRB and IA and give them a break, I reckon you'd sort it in a week.
If that sounds petulant I'm sorry but I'm only taking my lead from you ![]()
I'm not sure why you pick Bren's point out on this but I can see his point.
A community stadium in Agbrigg area may well improve the area, but a revitalised Belle Vue will not. The facilities would not be used by the local community very much if at all.
If we, as an example changed things round to there was a free sports facility attached where you could play squash and go to the gym cheaply etc then great. Or even just facilities where you could have meetings and community events, but I reckon (but don't have any evidence) that the event facilities at the club now, are rarely used by the local community.
To make that work properly, someone would have to do some analysis to find out what is needed. No small task.
NM is different as it isn't trying to cater for a local community. It is covering the whole of Wakefield in a 'neutral' area where you can go if you make the effort to travel.
Not that one is better or worse, but the Community aspect of both sites is very different.
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Am I being selfish by suggesting that I could give a rats 'arris what havoc or otherwise is caused by 13 SL games a year to the residents of BV?
It's not like they haven't had time to adapt.
Whatever ground we get, NM or BV mark 2, it's likely to be a damn sight better place to go than what we have now as much as I feel for BV mark 1.
If we've been let down by YKP, wakey council, the club or whoever as long as we get something that improves the clubs future sooner rather than later.
Glass half full, glass half empty? In just glad there's a glass with something in it.
Apologies for my simplistic view of the world and lack of soapbox but that's how I see it.
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| Quote: bren2k "Don't be a big baby Vasty; I haven't seen Sir Rodney, TRB or IA suggest that a refurbished BV would be the catalyst for a socio-economic regeneration in Agbrigg - only you suggested that and whilst it's a nice thought, it's pie in the sky.
I understand the need for those who are involved to dance to YC's tune, for fear of upsetting them; I don't have to agree with it though.'"
Me the big baby, irony metre on overload.
I never said Sir Rodney or anyone else suggested that - it's my opinion.
Tell me, how do you know anybody is dancing to Yorkcourts tune - my original post was to give interested people like you a hint that perhaps YC are not the villains in this that you wish to paint them. You won't take the hints that's fine, if you wish to spend your time peddling your one sided theories based on not much as far as I can see that's up to you. In the meantime the rest of us will get on with it. I like the way you tell us in slightly condescending tones what's gone wrong as if we don't know - for some on here Bren this quest for a new stadium has been a lot more than a few threads on a forum. TRB in particular runs the risk of being made to look a fool for trying and by definition will have wasted the last 10 years of his life for nothing if it doesn't come off. Now even a ten million pound upgrade to BV gets him little more than a sold out tag - which is EXACTLY what you are insinuating - so yes it does annoy me when people blast away without waiting for the facts.
Like it or not nobody owes us anything - you have to fight every inch of the way for whatever you can get - nobody gives a toss about WTRLFC other than a few thousand penniless fans. Yorkcourts money is the only money available - there is no other tune to dance to my friend - you may wish to vent your spleen against the hand that feeds, personally I think that's a poor idea but hey who am I.
Finally answer a straight question with a straight answer just for once.
Tell Sir Rodney, TRB and IA exactly what they should do regarding YC to get NM back on track - I'm sure they would love your input I certainly would because I've run out of alternative ideas. | | |
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| Quote: kinleycat "Am I being selfish by suggesting that I could give a rats 'arris what havoc or otherwise is caused by 13 SL games a year to the residents of BV?
It's not like they haven't had time to adapt.
Whatever ground we get, NM or BV mark 2, it's likely to be a damn sight better place to go than what we have now as much as I feel for BV mark 1.
If we've been let down by YKP, wakey council, the club or whoever as long as we get something that improves the clubs future sooner rather than later.
Glass half full, glass half empty? In just glad there's a glass with something in it.
Apologies for my simplistic view of the world and lack of soapbox but that's how I see it.'"
I don't think this is a selfish point of view at all.
Anything done to Belle Vue will improve the general area; of course parking etc is a problem 13 times a year but a lot of local businesses get a lot of trade also on matchdays but that never gets mentioned does it?
I cringe when I see some of the roads surrounding the ground and feel embarrassed when away supporters pass comment en route to the ground. Perhaps improvements to the Belle Vue stadium will lead to some general improvements in the area? | | |
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| Quote: PopTart "I'm not sure why you pick Bren's point out on this but I can see his point.
A community stadium in Agbrigg area may well improve the area, but a revitalised Belle Vue will not. The facilities would not be used by the local community very much if at all.
If we, as an example changed things round to there was a free sports facility attached where you could play squash and go to the gym cheaply etc then great. Or even just facilities where you could have meetings and community events, but I reckon (but don't have any evidence) that the event facilities at the club now, are rarely used by the local community.
To make that work properly, someone would have to do some analysis to find out what is needed. No small task.
NM is different as it isn't trying to cater for a local community. It is covering the whole of Wakefield in a 'neutral' area where you can go if you make the effort to travel.
Not that one is better or worse, but the Community aspect of both sites is very different.'"
A new BV with full conference facilities and hopefully bigger and more affluent crowds would boost the local economy and up the appeal of the area. The community is not just Yoga classes, it's bars and Taxi companies etc.
Yes it won't be as huge as it would if all the facilities were at BV but it's a start. As for the community facilities at NM, personally I think they are to far out and may well be a white elephant - just my opinion.
However we can get caught up in semantics all day long but we need a ground - now - and the predators for BV are already out there. | | |
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| Quote: vastman "Me the big baby, irony metre on overload.
Do you know what the expression "in my opinion" means? It means all opinion are equal, not Brens is the only one that counts.
I never said Sir Rodney or anyone else suggested that - it's my opinion - see above.
Tell me, how do you know anybody is dancing to Yorkcourts tune - my original post was to give people like you a hint that perhaps YC are not the villains in this that you wish to paint them. You won't take the hints that's fine, if you wish to waste your time peddling your one sided theories based on nothing as far as I'm concerned that's up to you. In the meantime the rest of us will get on with it. I love the way you tell us in true condescending style what's gone wrong as if we don't know - for some on here Bren this quest for a new stadium has bee a lot more than a few rants on a forum. TRB in particular runs the risk of being made to look a fool for trying and by definition will have wasted the last 10 years of his life for nothing if it doesn't come off. Now even a ten million pound upgrade to BV gets him little more than a sold out tag - which is EXACTLY what you are insinuating - so yes it does annoy me when people blast away without waiting for the facts.
Like it or not nobody owes us anything - you have to fight every inch of the way for whatever you can get - nobody gives a toss about WTRLFC other than a few thousand penniless fans. Yorkcourts money is the only money available - you may wish to vent your spleen against the hand that feeds, personally I think that's a poor idea and an attitude that undermines those negotiating.
Finally answer a straight question with a straight answer just for once.
Tell Sir Rodney, TRB and IA exactly what they should do regarding YC to get NM back on track - I'm sure they would love your input.'"
Typical overblown hissy-fit Vasty, containing the usual straw men, ad-hominem attacks and logical fallacies.
For clarity - I understand that opinions are equally valid on here - that's the point; you've given your opinion that this is a not ideal but expedient outcome, and suggested that a) we don't upset YC for fear they won't give us our pocket money and b) that getting a new stadium is worthwhile at any cost.
My own opinion is that the whole thing stinks and that there are bigger issues at play here than a stadium for WTW; significant numbers of people have essentially been duped into supporting a development that was against the wishes of the local community and as a result the whole process lacks integrity, whatever the outcome.
As for the rant about TRB - I have no idea where that comes from or what relevance it has; I've said nothing about that and I don't have a view - I think you may be conflating me with an earlier poster.
Finally - straight answer - I don't have one, as I'm not party to all the information; my own opinion though is that BV, with all its history and sentimental attachments, will never be a future-proof, fit for purpose location for a modern, successful, forward-thinking professional sports club. NM would have been, but that appears to have disappeared in a puff of corporate skulduggery.
Your problem I think is that you came here with news - expected it to be universally supported because others would agree that a new stadium for WTW is the most important element of all this - and you're perturbed because I don't. Sorry about that. | | |
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| Ding,ding...end of round 478, boys !!!
You two must be worn out from all that sparring....  | | |
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| Quote: bren2k "Typical overblown hissy-fit Vasty, containing the usual straw men, ad-hominem attacks and logical fallacies.
For clarity - I understand that opinions are equally valid on here - that's the point; you've given your opinion that this is a not ideal but expedient outcome, and suggested that a) we don't upset YC for fear they won't give us our pocket money and b) that getting a new stadium is worthwhile at any cost.
My own opinion is that the whole thing stinks and that there are bigger issues at play here than a stadium for WTW; significant numbers of people have essentially been duped into supporting a development that was against the wishes of the local community and as a result the whole process lacks integrity, whatever the outcome.
As for the rant about TRB - I have no idea where that comes from or what relevance it has; I've said nothing about that and I don't have a view - I think you may be conflating me with an earlier poster.
Finally - straight answer - I don't have one, as I'm not party to all the information; my own opinion though is that BV, with all its history and sentimental attachments, will never be a future-proof, fit for purpose location for a modern, successful, forward-thinking professional sports club. NM would have been, but that appears to have disappeared in a puff of corporate skulduggery.
Your problem I think is that you came here with news - expected it to be universally supported because others would agree that a new stadium for WTW is the most important element of all this - and you're perturbed because I don't. Sorry about that.'"
What a silly post, still if that's what you think - I'll carry on posting for those who wish to read them I'm sure I won't be to "bothered" by that , best of luck Bren.
PS: As usual you didn't answer the question just more Bren hot air as usual. | | | |
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30 |
| Leeds |
27 |
530 |
488 |
42 |
28 |
| Huddersfield |
27 |
468 |
658 |
-190 |
20 |
| Castleford |
27 |
425 |
735 |
-310 |
15 |
| Hull FC |
27 |
328 |
894 |
-566 |
6 |
| LondonB |
27 |
317 |
916 |
-599 |
6 |
| Betfred Championship 2024 ROUND : 1 | | | PLD | F | A | DIFF | PTS |
| Wakefield |
27 |
1032 |
275 |
757 |
52 |
This is an inplay table and live positions can change.
| Toulouse |
26 |
765 |
388 |
377 |
37 |
| Bradford |
28 |
723 |
420 |
303 |
36 |
| York |
29 |
695 |
501 |
194 |
32 |
| Widnes |
27 |
561 |
502 |
59 |
29 |
| Featherstone |
27 |
634 |
525 |
109 |
28 |
| |
| Sheffield |
26 |
626 |
526 |
100 |
28 |
| Doncaster |
26 |
498 |
619 |
-121 |
25 |
| Halifax |
26 |
509 |
650 |
-141 |
22 |
| Batley |
26 |
422 |
591 |
-169 |
22 |
| Swinton |
28 |
484 |
676 |
-192 |
20 |
| Barrow |
25 |
442 |
720 |
-278 |
19 |
| Whitehaven |
25 |
437 |
826 |
-389 |
18 |
| Dewsbury |
27 |
348 |
879 |
-531 |
4 |
| Hunslet |
1 |
6 |
10 |
-4 |
0 |
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