FORUMS > Wakefield Trinity > £500k supporters trust = only 50% ownership? |
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| Having read the statement on the WTRLFC website and today's Wakefield Express, I am a little unclear as to how the proposed supporters' trust is expected to work (another example of poor communication from the club!).
First things first, it would appear that WTRLFC Ltd is currently or soon to be (upon service of HMRC's next winding up petition) technically insolvent (i.e unable to pay its debts as they fall due). If this is the case then the current shareholders' stake in the company are worthless.
In view of the franchise application process, the club cannot go into Administration as this would be a black mark in terms of the 'Finance' part of the application. The fact that the RFL will bend the rules for that Crusaders farce is a disgrace but WTW has to work to different rules and avoid Administration if it stands a chance of securing another 3 year licence in the wonderful world of sky's super league.
If up to 500 supporters pay £500k (to be subsequently made available to sort WTRLFC Ltd's arrears position) then the supporters trust should receive 100% (or at least greater than 50%) of the shares in WTRLFC Ltd in exchange for ensuring its survival. The current board would call an EGM of the current shareholders to pass a resolution for all shares to be handed over to the supporters trust. Given time is of the essence, it may be quicker for a number of the current shareholders (with a combined holding greater than 50%) to undertake to transfer their shares to the trust.
The supporters trust would then rightly have total control of the club and appoint a new board of directors who would be given the £500k to spend and go forward within a sustainable business model which does not ever rely on an alleged £350k payment from a 3rd party developer to plug a funding gap in the club's finances.
Please could somebody confirm whether or not this is what is intended by the current BoD and major shareholders?
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| Something like that, or at least thats as I understood it............sort of lol
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| Dont think those who are able to put forward the money are looking for ownership. Just helping to keep going something that means alot to them and the wider Wakefield community. We have very little identity in this merry city, all we are botherd about is keeping going what identity we have before becoming another suburb of Leeds.
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Squadbuilder.........building a squad together: |
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| Quote: Ovat Bobbin "]Having read the statement on the WTRLFC website and today's Wakefield Express, I am a little unclear as to how the proposed supporters' trust is expected to work (another example of poor communication from the club!).
First things first, it would appear that WTRLFC Ltd is currently or soon to be (upon service of HMRC's next winding up petition) technically insolvent (i.e unable to pay its debts as they fall due). If this is the case then the current shareholders' stake in the company are worthless.
In view of the franchise application process, the club cannot go into Administration as this would be a black mark in terms of the 'Finance' part of the application. The fact that the RFL will bend the rules for that Crusaders farce is a disgrace but WTW has to work to different rules and avoid Administration if it stands a chance of securing another 3 year licence in the wonderful world of sky's super league.
If up to 500 supporters pay £500k (to be subsequently made available to sort WTRLFC Ltd's arrears position) then the supporters trust should receive 100% (or at least greater than 50%) of the shares in WTRLFC Ltd in exchange for ensuring its survival. The current board would call an EGM of the current shareholders to pass a resolution for all shares to be handed over to the supporters trust. Given time is of the essence, it may be quicker for a number of the current shareholders (with a combined holding greater than 50%) to undertake to transfer their shares to the trust.
The supporters trust would then rightly have total control of the club and appoint a new board of directors who would be given the £500k to spend and go forward within a sustainable business model which does not ever rely on an alleged £350k payment from a 3rd party developer to plug a funding gap in the club's finances.
Please could somebody confirm whether or not this is what is intended by the current BoD and major shareholders?'" ]
supporters trust NOTHING to do with club !
when are club insolvent
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17219_1385659818.jpg onetiger = half a cabbage
The night is dark and full of terrors.
Winter is coming.:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_17219.jpg |
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| Quote: Ovat Bobbin "Having read the statement on the WTRLFC website and today's Wakefield Express, I am a little unclear as to how the proposed supporters' trust is expected to work (another example of poor communication from the club!).
First things first, it would appear that WTRLFC Ltd is currently or soon to be (upon service of HMRC's next winding up petition) technically insolvent (i.e unable to pay its debts as they fall due). If this is the case then the current shareholders' stake in the company are worthless.
In view of the franchise application process, the club cannot go into Administration as this would be a black mark in terms of the 'Finance' part of the application. The fact that the RFL will bend the rules for that Crusaders farce is a disgrace but WTW has to work to different rules and avoid Administration if it stands a chance of securing another 3 year licence in the wonderful world of sky's super league.
If up to 500 supporters pay £500k (to be subsequently made available to sort WTRLFC Ltd's arrears position) then the supporters trust should receive 100% (or at least greater than 50%) of the shares in WTRLFC Ltd in exchange for ensuring its survival. The current board would call an EGM of the current shareholders to pass a resolution for all shares to be handed over to the supporters trust. Given time is of the essence, it may be quicker for a number of the current shareholders (with a combined holding greater than 50%) to undertake to transfer their shares to the trust.
The supporters trust would then rightly have total control of the club and appoint a new board of directors who would be given the £500k to spend and go forward within a sustainable business model which does not ever rely on an alleged £350k payment from a 3rd party developer to plug a funding gap in the club's finances.
Please could somebody confirm whether or not this is what is intended by the current BoD and major shareholders?'"
The supporter trust is nothing to do with the club, how it turns out will depend on support for the trust.
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| I doubt that the full £500k will be made available to the new BoD to spend as they like - the vast majority will be accounted for already through a combination of outstanding debt (either to suppliers/bank/HMRC) and other payments that are already committed over the next few weeks/months.
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17219_1385659818.jpg onetiger = half a cabbage
The night is dark and full of terrors.
Winter is coming.:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_17219.jpg |
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| Quote: RDM "I doubt that the full £500k will be made available to the new BoD to spend as they like - the vast majority will be accounted for already through a combination of outstanding debt (either to suppliers/bank/HMRC) and other payments that are already committed over the next few weeks/months.'"
I would tend to agree, sadly.
Like you say its to "clear the decks".
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3662_1306065880.jpg [quote="EmmaMur01"]I hope they get relegated. Their fans are idiots.[/quote]
[quote="vastman"]
honest to god your like a big and not very bright child.
[/quote]
[quote="'Hitman' Norvern Soul"]
You are a sprawling urban metropolis that was once one of
Europe's major cities.[/quote]
BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_3662.jpg |
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| Quote: RDM "I doubt that the full £500k will be made available to the new BoD to spend as they like - the vast majority will be accounted for already through a combination of outstanding debt (either to suppliers/bank/HMRC) and other payments that are already committed over the next few weeks/months.'"
I keep asking these questions and as yet have not received an answer but will try again.
Who is going to pay the image rights tax bill and next years tax bill, should we last that long, will the 500 be digging deep again?
How long will the 500k keep us going once the debts have been wiped out, is it just a stay of execution?
Exactly how big are the clubs debts?
Anyone being asked to 'invest' should be given this information. Oh sorry I forgot I should just give to show how much the club means to me...
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50722_1319672516.jpg :d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_50722.jpg |
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| Quote: BIGAL1 "
Unless administration is used in a proactive way; if the Trust acknowledges that SL isn't an option from 2012 onwards, going into administration will enable the majority of the historical debt to be wiped out, and make sure that any funds raised by a new share offering can be used in a more productive way.
My fear at the moment is that the current BoD could use any funds raised to discharge the clubs historical debt, *then* walk away en masse, bearing no responsibility for the mess they presided over and leaving the nascient Supporters Trust with virtually no operating capital.
The meeting on the 18th will be a good forum for these discussions.
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| Quote: J.T "I keep asking these questions and as yet have not received an answer but will try again.
Who is going to pay the image rights tax bill and next years tax bill, should we last that long, will the 500 be digging deep again?
How long will the 500k keep us going once the debts have been wiped out, is it just a stay of execution?
Exactly how big are the clubs debts?
Anyone being asked to 'invest' should be given this information. Oh sorry I forgot I should just give to show how much the club means to me...'"
JT - I work in corporate finance and have the same questions (and a few more besides). As I live & work in the south-east I couldn't make it to the meeting on Tuesday so was keen to see the club's statement, which doesn't really tell me anything. I called the club on Thursday to try to get some answers (information I'm reasonably entitled to as a shareholder) and was promised a call back from one of the BoD yesterday.
Needless to say I'm still waiting for the call, and although letters were apparently sent to shareholders on Thursday I'm still waiting for mine to arrive (you'd have thought that given the apparent urgency they'd be posted first class).
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| Quote: bren2k "Unless administration is used in a proactive way; if the Trust acknowledges that SL isn't an option from 2012 onwards, going into administration will enable the majority of the historical debt to be wiped out, and make sure that any funds raised by a new share offering can be used in a more productive way.
My fear at the moment is that the current BoD could use any funds raised to discharge the clubs historical debt, *then* walk away en masse, bearing no responsibility for the mess they presided over and leaving the nascient Supporters Trust with virtually no operating capital.
The meeting on the 18th will be a good forum for these discussions.'"
The difficulty with the current situation is that there is clearly an urgent need for the cash, but we have no idea how entering Administration will impact the franchise application.
If we knew we would be treated on the same basis as Crusaders (even if it is a negative mark against us both) then it would clearly be in the club's best interest to enter Administration now. Given that the indications are that the RFL's usual double standards would apply, appointing Administrators now would be shooting ourselves in the foot.
While I'm still waiting to get the full information from the club, it is almost certain that the bulk of the £500k will be put towards existing liabilities (be they overdue, imminent or contracted).
Equally, it's not as if the club needs massive amounts of working capital. We should need no more than £150k and should realistically be able to manage comfortably on a lot less than that.
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3662_1306065880.jpg [quote="EmmaMur01"]I hope they get relegated. Their fans are idiots.[/quote]
[quote="vastman"]
honest to god your like a big and not very bright child.
[/quote]
[quote="'Hitman' Norvern Soul"]
You are a sprawling urban metropolis that was once one of
Europe's major cities.[/quote]
BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_3662.jpg |
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| Quote: RDM "JT - I work in corporate finance and have the same questions (and a few more besides). As I live & work in the south-east I couldn't make it to the meeting on Tuesday so was keen to see the club's statement, which doesn't really tell me anything. I called the club on Thursday to try to get some answers (information I'm reasonably entitled to as a shareholder) and was promised a call back from one of the BoD yesterday.
Needless to say I'm still waiting for the call, and although letters were apparently sent to shareholders on Thursday I'm still waiting for mine to arrive (you'd have thought that given the apparent urgency they'd be posted first class).'"
Good luck with that one I'm still waiting for a response to an e-mail I sent abouit the last share 'offer'.
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50722_1319672516.jpg :d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_50722.jpg |
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| Quote: RDM "The difficulty with the current situation is that there is clearly an urgent need for the cash, but we have no idea how entering Administration will impact the franchise application.
If we knew we would be treated on the same basis as Crusaders (even if it is a negative mark against us both) then it would clearly be in the club's best interest to enter Administration now. Given that the indications are that the RFL's usual double standards would apply, appointing Administrators now would be shooting ourselves in the foot.'"
I understand what you're saying, but I'm absolutely convinced that we have no chance of getting a franchise anyway - I'd prefer to see us cutting our cloth for the Championship and working towards a strong bid, out of NM, for 2015. In that scenario, entering administration would have no impact on a franchise application, as there wouldn't be one.
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| Quote: bren2k "I understand what you're saying, but I'm absolutely convinced that we have no chance of getting a franchise anyway - I'd prefer to see us cutting our cloth for the Championship and working towards a strong bid, out of NM, for 2015. In that scenario, entering administration would have no impact on a franchise application, as there wouldn't be one.'"
If the finances of the club can be stabilised and we can demonstrate that we will be playing the 2012-2014 seasons in stadia that meet SL criteria, then the only significant concern from a franchising perspective is attendances.
I don't doubt that the cost of maintaining BV is a huge drain on the club's cash & the sooner we move out, the sooner we get more cash from Cala Homes to further strengthen the finances.
Perverse as this may seem, if we aren't playing in SL between 2012 & 2014 I would much prefer this to be because of the RFL's double standards than because the club made the decision for them by not applying. That way we'd be able to build a 3 year campaign in the Championship to show the RFL how wrong they were to relegate us.
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| Quote: BIGAL1 "The supporter trust is nothing to do with the club, how it turns out will depend on support for the trust.'"
Whilst the supporters trust would be a separate entity from the club and WTRLFC Ltd, it will have very much something to do with both as it will potentially give the club an opportunity to secure another super league franchise AND it may ensure the solvency of the corporate entity (i.e. WTRLFC Ltd) which currently owns the club!
I also fully appreciate that the vast majority of the £500k will be used to discharge existing HMRC/bank debt BUT the new board of directors will have to develop a sustainable business plan going forward once these arrears have been paid.
If the trust was to raise £500k then it should ensure that it has a controlling stake in WTRLFC Ltd and control over who sits on the Board before advancing any of these monies.
If not then these monies will be advanced to the same controlling individuals who have run the club towards its current precarious financial position.
Hopefully the above is clear as it should be communicated to prospective contributors to the trust that it will happen! The other matter that needs to be clarified is who will administer the collections of money into the trust...the club, WTRLFC Ltd or a 3rd party...it should be the latter.
All the above should be considered at the meeting on 18th Jan.
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