Show me where i said Madges team played off the cuff. I didnt, you are trying to put words into my mouth. I said they ran set moves. Whether or not it was around Roberts or Tomkins makes no difference, they had set plays which involved various ways of confusing defenders and creating openings rather than this single idea of swinging the ball left to right along the line.



I have never said dont have structure and dont try to dominate the opposition with the basics. I have merely argued for some entertaining set plays and more variety to our attack at the right times. The easy way to do that is look at some of the stuff teams of the past used to play and shoehorn them in to the modern game. Since Andy Gregory was a master at pulling off set plays then it would be a good idea to have him try to recreate some of them with the current team which they could then use when we are stuck on the opposition line and the usual left/right ball swinging is not working. You seem to be comparing apples and oranges and coming up with bananas. Your argument seems to be that nothing will work other than what we are doing now because most teams play the same way.

I accept i used the term off the cuff instead of set plays incorrectly.
Point still stands, it was done within structure and after gaining dominance in other areas of the game.

As for me trying to put words into peoples mouths I think you need to have a look at your own posts first.

Let's get back to the initial point.
You think watching DVDs and implementing plays from the 80s/90s in tandem with getting Andy Greg back to oversee some of this is the way forward.

I dont

Well leave it at that?

Kenny, Lewis, Daley, Langer, Fittler, Johns, Lamb, Mortimer, Raudonikis, Stuart, Lyons and Sterling....think you'll find I win

Some good points taken onboard and I think we broadly agree. I think we're we probably don't entirely agree is that I think we have gone way ott on fitness and structure at the expense of individualism and skills.
Could it be that improving players skills other than defending is a lot harder and more time consuming than fitness work etc? Do coaches take the "easier option"?

In a nutshell I just want a bit more excitement from the game ideally with fast open competitive rugby. I don't want 42-38 games I love a tight physical game but a tight physical game with the odd moment of genius or superlative skill that you wait to get back to the pub to regale about.
As I've said on previous posts the game historically works in cycles so I'm hopeful the day of the wrestle and incessant 5 drives and a kick won't last forever. I'm not convinced about LM but more than happy to be proven wrong that he can instill/allow a more attractive style into our game

Don’t forget I was told that it was all about super league and the English game. So while you’ve dipped into the NRL and albeit some of the players on the list had minimal time playing here; you’ll need to revise your list.

Ps I love how you end your post with ‘I win’ my 5 year old nephew would do exactly the same.

Don’t forget I was told that it was all about super league and the English game. So while you’ve dipped into the NRL and albeit some of the players on the list had minimal time playing here; you’ll need to revise your list.

Ps I love how you end your post with ‘I win’ my 5 year old nephew would do exactly the same.

First things first
A Number of times this thread has mentioned that the games not as exciting - I've said it numerous times I agree - But that's a different subject.
The issue I have is that simply saying we want the game to be more exciting isn't going to stop the coaches from looking for that winning edge and Winning comes first - Also because the game isn't as exciting it's too simple to equate that to less skill, the Skills may be in different areas than they used to be but it's like saying that players of yesteryear couldn't tackle, they could, the emphasis though just wasn't on them defending as well and as structured as it is now.
The players of today are skilful, they just have to be skilful in ways that fit into the structures being coached.
With regards to going way OTT on fitness that's the issue though, We can't stop teams getting Bigger stronger, faster etc.
I feel the game needs to tweak the rules to assist us in Opening up the game more, reduced Substitutions, shot clock and quicker restarts will go some way to doing this by bringing in more of a fatigue factor leading to more space for "Flair" type players and attack to exploit it.

What I will say though is the interesting point you make about :-
"Could it be that improving players skills other than defending is a lot harder and more time consuming than fitness work etc? Do coaches take the "easier option"? "

I coach in a different sport, a sport that IMO has a better balance between Fitness & the Core Skills of the game (Cricket - With players U20 down to 7/8yr olds).
I've coached for 15 years now and learned a lot in that time and I do think that "The Coaching Manual" tends to teach coaches how to do things By the Book so to speak. That in itself can lead to a stagnant way of doing things and occasionally it needs innovation or outside the box thinking.

I've already Bored the pants off people too much so don't want to go on too much but Many years ago A player of mine was struggling in certain areas Batting. He had gone from being a free flowing/natural type player into someone who just looked so out of place at the crease he looked like a different person. Now he'd gone through a few issues "off the field" and my natural reaction was to talk "technique", Basics, focus on what he was doing wrong and work on those errors in his game and to be honest for a month or so we weren't getting anywhere fast.

I was going to look at some more intensive coaching from better/more qualified coaches than myself when an experienced guy I spoke to said he'd gone through something similar with a player a few years earlier.
His answer - Go into the nets, throw a hundred Balls at him and forget everything, forget technique, forget detail - just hit them, enjoy hitting them
We did this for a couple of sessions and the old player came back, started the season well, remained in the representative team and performed as well as he had ever done previously if not better.
I've used that 2/3 times more with players who seem to be struggling and it's amazing how if you remove all of the technical stuff and free up their minds to "Just Play" it can help.
The paradox is that you can't just do that in isolation - Because the game will expose other weaknesses that you have to work on and invariably those who work the hardest and focus on other teams weaknesses, and work on their own structures etc. invariably win.

So I do think that coaches do often "Take the easy option" although I would word it more along the lines of they get Stuck in their world, focus on the textbook too much and the problems they have they look for the answers within the same structures and working harder on those when that got them into those problems in the first place.

It's very complicated with everyone looking for that 1% winning edge and the answer for each player/team/coach isn't always the same, what works well for "A" may not work as well for "B" and that's what separates the winners from the Losers.

I'm not Lam's biggest fan and I do believe he spent the 2nd half of the year putting things Back in place defensively that had been overlooked early on in the year for the idea of playing a more "Open" type rugby. It was only when we got things defensively better that IMO we could start to play with the ball a bit better.
Ultimately it wasn't good enough and I think it took too much out of the tank catching up on the bad start but it showed to me that you can't just decide to Play more open, you still have to have the structures and systems that sit behind it.

So stick to your own rules.
Merry Christmas son. Have a good one

schofield, edwards, paul, gregory, goulding, kenny, sterling, lewis, lyons (all played in the uk), Hulme, Martyn, Briers, Anderson (chris), Harris, Fox are all classier and more skillful than anything superleague has seen in the last decade

merry christmas

Does it have to be in the last decade? Otherwise Dennis Moran would be a shoe in.

Merry Christmas

And i have said all along, keep the structure but also allow some looser plays at the right times.

You seem like a very unambitious person. Every time somebody comes up with an idea or thinks outside of the box you're like, 'no, we cant do that everything must stay the same because thats the way it is'. I bet you have the same neal, at the same time on the same days each week dont you?

That's the 3rd time you've accused me of the same type of thing, I.e. has the same meal every day, doesn't use a sat nav.
Along with numerous insults

You have absolutely no idea who I am, what I am, what I've done in life etc.
It just seems as though you will say things to deflect away from some of the mind boggling stuff you come out with
As I've said before, good luck watching those 80s/90s DVD's
Let me know how you get on coaching/working with those amateur clubs and putting your undoubted and vastly superior knowledge back into the game.
Quick tip though, if you come up against a hard team that you think you cant beat then dont just concede like you wanted Wigan to do against the roosters.
Get some of that Cheetah DNA pumped into em or those inflatable implants to help them.
Get Kelvin skerret in or Andy greg or many of those other wonderful ideas that you and only you with your vastly superior open mind who can think the unthinkable unlike us meer mortals

I'm absolutely sure that watching old DVDs and implementing those moves is something that thousands of modern day coaches haven't thought of and it just needs someone like you to propose it and transform the game, you never know you could be the Jack Gibson of the 20s

Anyway, have a lovely Xmas
Let me get on with debating whether to have my usual Wednesday fish fingers chips and beans or a Xmas dinner tomorrow
Whether to stick to the B roads getting to the in laws rather tha those new fangled Motorway thing mi Bob's and let's hope someone buys me an AtoZ map so I can find them in the first place!