Serious question for you then Dave. Given that we are currently showing a positive points difference, despite our poor start, are playing the best attacking rugby in many seasons and maybe even beginning to match that with something like a good defence, what would you consider an acceptable improvement this season given that all the points you bring up are beginnining to be addressed.

Ill tell you now, he will say No.

Someone recently posted the win ratios for the previous three seasons and they certainly seemed to back up Dave's argument here. I'm sorry about this but Dave is right, the team has been going backwards since '07.

I don't want to seem negative, and it is really good that there is some optimism and ambition back at the club and amongst the fans, but I'm just trying to be realistic.

That doesn't mean that we won't now see the team move forwards, put together a good cup run and move quickly up the table with a lengthy streak of wins. I hope we do, obviously.

But being realistic I can't say that I'm getting my hopes up too much. Maybe if we go the next couple of months unbeaten I'll start to dream of a GF win.... but for the moment I remain a bit sceptical.

But again I put the same question to you DG.


The league competition is all about jockying for position until September. There is then a cup competition to decide the season.

Those are the rules and any coach worth his salt will play to them, and more importantly optimise his team to perform within them.

The cup is a different beast admitedly, but again it's a knockout competition and I am not sure we can draw any conclusions on 2 years worth of that.


The League is irrelevant (or if you prefer very very very unimportant).


Btw I have no desire for this to turn into a slanging match. I am genuinely interested in being told why I am wrong here, as I cannot see that I am.

You can't have it both ways. If what you say is correct that a sample of two would be laughed out of any statistical analysis then so would your assertion that there is any significance to his playoff record at Wigan. Quite clearly by your own measure a sample of two in the playoffs is equally irrelevant but you base your entire case on it.

However facts are facts and the period we are concerned with is his time at Wigan so that is the only "sample" we have to go on and we did worse in the cup in 2008 than 2007 and that remains a fact.

So as I see it you can do one of two things. Write off his record in the playoffs as statistically irrelevant or agree we went worse in the cup over the period under discussion. Which is it? Your choice.



You can repeat it as often as you like but saying the league record is irrelevant is complete nonsense. And as you are so fond of statistical samples a much wider one than two seasons worth proves that to be the case with only one winner of SL outside the top 2 since the play offs started. That is why you are wrong on this one, or are statistics now going to be out of fashion since they inconveniently disprove your assertion?



Spelt out above.

Dave

Don't worry BK, I only do slanging matches with Stains supporting SC fanatics...

Let's leave aside the fact that I really do not like watching a Wigan team put in a shameful performance like say the Hudds game last season or some of the dross that was served up at the start of this season. I do take the point that the league is not really a goal in itself anymore, but the reality is that if you finish below the top 2 spots history shows it is very difficult to win the GF. (The SL hasn't been won from below 3rd has it, and from 3rd I think only once or twice?).

I know that this year's play-off system is different, maybe it will be easier to win from a lowly position but I think we just leave ourselves too much to do. I'm also not convinced that its really as easy as it sounds to take it easy early on in the season and then switch on a higher level of performance; particularly as for me there remain big question marks about the fitness and conditioning regime at Wigan (though things do seem to have improved in the last 2-3 games).

As for the cup, I'm bitterly disappointed with the way Wigan have performed in the last few years. I'd love a trip to Wembley and think it could really help spark a Wigan revival. I really do hope we don't crash out again.

We came third in a 2 horse race. We did not gain any ground on Leeds or Saints and dropped deeper into the chasing pack.

What does statistical significance have to do with anything? Are you now saying it is impossible to compare results over 2 years? Why do statistics have to be involved?

The League is clearly not irrelevant given the fact that the best placed clubs ie clubs from the top 2 or 3 usually go on to win the competition.

As I said, I credit Noble for the weekend performance, but it shows how we can play as many on here thought we could. Many of the pro Noble supporters are saying he does not have the raw material to work with, a theory now that has been blown out of the water. It is still sadly at the moment a one off performance of the back of 2 results against 2 teams really struggling for form.

The Saints game I feel has put Noble back in a position to control his future at Wigan and fair play to him, but he needs to back it up now. This is not to say he has to produce a team capable of hitting that level every week, but it certainly means he can no longer produce teams that turn out the standard of performance we have seen for much of this and the last 2 seasons.

Still want him to leave, but you have to wonder if his effort over the last fews years is finaly comingh together

Surely the key word in all this debate is consistency, under Noble Wigan have proved in some games that there is a good team there capable of playing good rugby and winning, how many times have we been here - celebrating a great win only to be disappointed in the next games.

For me Noble has done many good things at the club - and some bad things BUT the one thing I would say is the major failing is getting any type of consistent performances through a season (bar a little run at the very end of the season). I think the next few games are absolutely key in determining Noble's future - put together a good run and he will stay but revert to type and I can see a new coach next season.

I would be happy if (and it is a huge if) Noble stays and Wigan perform like they did against Saints on a regular basis - will this happen? I have doubts based on the histroy of recent seasons and if the team do slip back to inconsistent ways then I would support a change of coach.

We have won 3 games on the bounce against a poor Celtic and then yes il give Noble credit were its due Wakey away and Saints are good and excellent results but his biggest test is now, back it up vs,

Wakey away,
Hull KR home
Wire away
Salford home
Celtic away
Hull KR away
Quins home
Catalan home

Lets win in the cup and then at 6 from 7 of the next games.

All of those games are winnable if Wigan are on form. It's a golden opportunity for Noble to nail himself to the club for another contract.

See what position we are in at the end of the year.

Didn't purposely come on here for 3/4 days after game becuase I knew this Tripe would be on almost Word for Word!

It's getting Boring Now

Yearly Statistics
Year Pos Pld W L D F A Avg. Att. Pts
2009 9 13 6 7 0 320 267 16,435 12
2008 4 27 13 11 3 648 698 14,505 29
2007 6 27 15 11 1 621 527 16,040 27
2006 8 28 12 16 0 644 715 14,465 22
2005 7 28 14 14 0 698 718 13,892 28
2004 4 28 17 7 4 736 558 12,650 38
2003 3 28 19 7 2 776 512 10,252 40
2002 3 28 19 8 1 817 475 10,439 39
2001 2 28 22 5 1 989 494 11,463 45
2000 1 28 24 3 1 960 405 10,536 49


So what Your saying is that finishing 3rd 2 x seasons in a row in Play offs after not even making them for 2 x seasons is No Improvement?

Finishing 6th 2007 then 4th in league 2008 is not an improvement on finishing 8th & 7th 2 x previous seasons?

Yes I do know the Salary Cap problems aren't reflected in there, but Facts are Facts Dave!

CC - Losing in qtrs to a Reigning SL Champions away from home is worse than losing in Semi's to a team that finished bottom year before on a Neutral ground!

A Worse win/loss ratio in 2008 than 2007 but only because of 2 x draws! Clutching at straws here aren't you Dave but then again it's still better than 2006 when we won less, and 11 of those 12 came after Noble took after!

Points difference is worse! God Almighty DaveO, Now were scraping the Barrell to prove a point again!
But again it's better than your favourite team of 2006 managed!

What's next? Are you going to compare knock on's per season, metres made or Offloads!

As for being entertained throughout the season rather than just the play off's, Don't disagree totally but would you take entertaining/losing rugby?
I know your next reply, well we've been watching boring/losing rugby blah blah blah! But you know what?
It's better than the 2005 & 2006!
The Stats prove it Dave!
Look above!

Oh Sorry, Your Word is Fact!

PS

I don't believe much of the above Stat rubbish either Dave, I just Know from what I see with my own eyes that were a Better "Team" than we have been for 4/5 seasons, it may take a bit of patience & time to see the consistancy & confidence grow but I think it will come.
Will Noble be in charge for the next 18 months +, I don't know??

But one things for sure, your constant Noble Bashing is not fooling many! Maybe the Quick fix brigade but not many!

And before JonH replies I'm not saying he should be here next season either, just that constant Regurgitation of "DavO's Facts" is absolute tripe and there for one thing only!
For DaveO to prove himself right again so he can sleep at night in his own little Omnipotent World!

Agreed.

I think the next 3 games in particular and the Hull KR away game are the key performance indicators for Ian Lenigan.

Although given the form of Wakefield at the moment a loss to them in the Cup would be pretty disasterous.

Wow, talk about a turnaround in attitudes!

Just goes to show how important performing in the derby is. You're still not in a play-ff place, despite having played 1 more game than all above you (2 more than Quins) but suddenly Noble is doing a good job.

A win over the auld enemy certainly does wonders for confidence though and I can see you lot going on a decent run now, starting at Wakefield in the cup.