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Quote: Last Son of Wigan "Beaten, bullied, out played.

Our attack seems highly predictable, seems to be the same movement every week, half/dummy runner to half/dummer runner to Sam linking up from the back causing a 3 v 2 overlap with Daz and Josh on his outside. From this we seem to get either Sam dummy and go, pass to Daz or cut out ball to Josh. (Of course this movement is evident on the other side of the pitch with George etc).
9/10 it works against lesser teams. its fast and with Sam's ability we score from it. But against a good coach it becomes transparent. Wire easily cancelled out our best attacking weapon (Sam) simply by having JM cut in and stop the moment when Sam is about to take on the ball. Regardless of such predictably there was no plan B.

In contrast when St George were coached by Wayne Bennett they perfected the moment whereas the defence had no idea who was going to run, who was going to be the dummy runner and who was going to finish with the ball.

They used Soward to break away, from here the defence would not know if he's going to take on the line or pass, with this he had a SR Ben Creagh alongside with Cooper and Morris as an attacking centre/winger partnership. To add another threat Boyd joined the line from FB. At this point any of the mentioned could be the ball carrier, anyone the dummy runner. When the 5 attack down the flank in a line the 3/4 of the opposition would be scared to death of what was going to come next.

We don't have such movement, we look predictable, basically cancel Sam and you've stopped our attack, with StG if Boyd was stopped one of the others would be still a threat.

I think we have the players to create something different, the drills need to be practised and coached, I barely see any other pattern, we play into the oppositions hands.

Warrington like to throw the 'first punch' hit us hard and keep on the pressure from the get-go, the opposition tire from tackle after tackle and become vulnerable and exposed, and of course when you're tired you are more likely to make mistakes. This happened, it's almost as if Wane fires up certain players so much they lose their heads, case in point Micky.

This season Micky has proven his ability as a top 9, however, at times, when fired up he seems more concerned with intensity and letting us all know how 'ard he is' rather than keeping a cool head. If he was a backrower it would be different, but as a 9 you must have composure and awareness, I for one have never ever seen Cam Smith lose his cool, today of all days, playing with just a single 9 he had to be so in-control, I feel he wasn't, (at one point he was rolling on the floor with Moz to show us how 'ard he is'.
This created such a negative impact, at times when we needed to generate momentum getting on a roll with the forwards we never did, Micky wasn't at the races. If he cooled down and became a 'game leader' rather that an enforcer we'd would have had more chance of winning the arm-wrestle.

The forwards were rattled, Wire brought an 'origin esque' attitude, a winning mentality which has been inspired by their coach and key on on field leaders, Morley showed his calibre and leadership which Hill followed with great effect. Westwood showed his winning desire and played for his life. Excellent mentality throughout.
In opposition to this who are actually our leaders? Lockers, love him, great player, but leader? Undecided. We have some excellent props but who's the enforcer/leader? If one of the props matched Morley maybe Micky wouldn't feel the need to enforce from 9. Eric for me was the best player, he brought it, pity Mossop didn't stand up, and I think it's about time Prescott was pushed to one side for other props, can't remember seeing a prop lose the ball so much on impact. Lima worked hard but he needs more support.
Hock is 'origin' in his approach but seems to have trouble raising intensity without losing his head, with this Wane panics and takes him off.

Quote: Last Son of Wigan "We don't seem mentally ready. Maybe Wane's I'll shout them down get angry until they play better approach isn't always the best way to deal with a beaten team. We almost seem nervous and afraid of Wire, we shouldn't be.

It's time for a plan B, more options in attack with a strong steel mentality which shows no fear, no backing down. Won't lose our heads or temperament but we'll tackle so hard they will be scared to take the line on. '"


Let this loss be the wake up call.'"


Totally agree, i think we have been 'out coached' in the key games vs Leeds and Wire. More ideas, more options required and team selections have been questionable i.e. Lima against Leeds and Prescot, Finch and Hansen against Wire. I like SW passion and enthusiasm but i wonder if technically he is better than McDermott and Smith....

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Quote: yickpie24 "Totally agree, i think we have been 'out coached' in the key games vs Leeds and Wire. More ideas, more options required and team selections have been questionable i.e. Lima against Leeds and Prescot, Finch and Hansen against Wire. I like SW passion and enthusiasm but i wonder if technically he is better than McDermott and Smith....'"


Woa.
It wasn't Wane who threw the awful pass that Briers picked up in the first minute. It wasn't Wane who made that terrible tackle on Hill. It wasn't Wane who dropped the ball after we'd just scored.

Those INDIVIDUAL errors (and there more that I could highlight) cost us the match. As I have said in a previous thread I thought Wigan defended well considering the amount of ball we gave away, particularly in our own half.

Let's put it this way, had Wigan received that amount of ball in those field positions I would expect them to rack up as many if not more points than Wire did.

What was disappointing was the reaction to the errors and the way Wire looked more hungry for the loose balls, but is that Wane's fault or the players? I'm not sure but it needs addressing.

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Quote: Rogues Gallery "Woa.
It wasn't Wane who threw the awful pass that Briers picked up in the first minute. It wasn't Wane who made that terrible tackle on Hill. It wasn't Wane who dropped the ball after we'd just scored.

Those INDIVIDUAL errors (and there more that I could highlight) cost us the match. As I have said in a previous thread I thought Wigan defended well considering the amount of ball we gave away, particularly in our own half.

Let's put it this way, had Wigan received that amount of ball in those field positions I would expect them to rack up as many if not more points than Wire did.

What was disappointing was the reaction to the errors and the way Wire looked more hungry for the loose balls, but is that Wane's fault or the players? I'm not sure but it needs addressing.'"


One thing Wane does have to take the blame for is team selection. Picking two forwards who clearly weren't fit enough and thinking the team would be capable of winning regardless is pretty naive.

There's simply no way Prescott could have been fully fit so we effectively went into a game against the best pack in the league with 16 players and only 3 props.

Add to that the decision to play Finch as well and he basically took the game out of our reach before it had even kicked off.

A team containing fully fit players would have stood a better chance than one carrying players from the start.

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Not so much a Plan B, but maybe a change of mentality. We are so used to dominating the opposition team that after 20 mins or so the match is ours. But when you look at the the two 'big' games this season we conceded first by a stupid mistake from one of our own, after this we struggle to come back and then we are chasing the game, passing laterally instead of running forward.

I think I have heard Phil Clark allude to it slightly that if Wigan go in at half time behind they will lose. Can any one remember the last time that we have won from being behind at half time?

We just need some balls about us and someone to take the mantle and go forward and man up when the going gets tough. Instead we just go in our shells.

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Quote: Cherry.Pie "One thing Wane does have to take the blame for is team selection. Picking two forwards who clearly weren't fit enough and thinking the team would be capable of winning regardless is pretty naive.

There's simply no way Prescott could have been fully fit so we effectively went into a game against the best pack in the league with 16 players and only 3 props.

Add to that the decision to play Finch as well and he basically took the game out of our reach before it had even kicked off.

A team containing fully fit players would have stood a better chance than one carrying players from the start.'"


What was the point of Jack Hughes on the bench? He only came on in the 70th minute or something. Surely it would be better to have an inter-change hooker in that spot.

Interesting stats from the match relate to the metres gained (or not gained as the case may be) of your props:

Mossop 27m
Lauaki 51m
Prescott 18m
Lima 92m

in comparison with:

Morley 110m
Hill 122m
Carvell 47m
Wood 94m


You must be looking at recruiting a "senior" prop for next season to replace Lima.

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Quote: Cherry.Pie "I'm not sure what you mean by this. As it stands there's no ambiguity; a pass is forward relative to the player making it. It doesn't matter whether the passer overruns it, whether the receiver appears to catch it 5 yards forward, how far it appears to travel in relation to the ground or anything else.

The rule as it is makes it pretty clear that if it's released forward then it is forward.'"


I agree that’s what I tried to say. In short, if a ball when passed is in front of the hands on release, it’s forward! The ambiguity I spoke of was not mine its Stevo’s and others.

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Quote: Last Son of Wigan "Today the top two teams in SL played. One dominated the other setting the benchmark for the league. Previous to that they beat Saints another top contender. I think it would be unusual to watch both games and consider past history more prevalent to recent performances.'"

-+1 good post-

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Quote: Rogues Gallery "Correct it's to do with the player who makes the pass not the receiver.'"


Again, that's what I said! (it's fat Stevo who has a different idea) "NOT ME" thank you.

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Quote: Paul Youane "
Interesting stats from the match relate to the metres gained (or not gained as the case may be) of your props


Very true, and what most of us have been saying. Having said that, those stats doesn't take number of carries into account, and the lack of possession we had (due to our own mistakes) meant yours got way more carries than ours. I was impressed with Hill, though - you've got a good one there.

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Quote: Geoff "Very true, and what most of us have been saying. Having said that, those stats doesn't take number of carries into account, and the lack of possession we had (due to our own mistakes) meant yours got way more carries than ours. I was impressed with Hill, though - you've got a good one there.'"


That's the point I was going to make.

Wire had to make about 90 less tackles. They had 10 more completed sets than Wigan. The errors and tackling took a lot of petrol out of the tank. Under those circumstances Wigan did well to keep the score down.

Just to illustrate it a little further.
The four props Paul named made from Wire made 62 tackles, the four Wigan props he named made 82 tackles.

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“Momentum rule” is Stevo’s term NOT MINE and not wishing to be rude, but within the contexts of the argument about a forward pass, what does it matter if “HE” uses the wrong word, be it rule, or law I’m sorry but this point just seems to be splitting a hair to no purpose. IF A BALL LEAVES THE PASSER HANDS IN FRONT OF THOSE HANDS, IT IS A FORWARD PASS. It doesn’t matter where the bloke who catches is! In the stand, in the dressing room or on the moon, because by then the game should have been stopped for an infringement.

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Quote: Last Son of Wigan "Today the top two teams in SL played. One dominated the other setting the benchmark for the league. Previous to that they beat Saints another top contender. I think it would be unusual to watch both games and consider past history more prevalent to recent performances.'"


A good post and I understand your point, but in saying that, if Wire lose to London this week does that still make them the best team in SL or would that be London because they have had a recent run of good form. Games will be affected by many things, injuries, suspension and rotation. Wigan have shown that form may be transient, only at the end of the season will we know which team was the most competent, till then it’s just snap shots of form.

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Quote: Geoff "Very true, and what most of us have been saying. Having said that, those stats doesn't take number of carries into account, and the lack of possession we had (due to our own mistakes) meant yours got way more carries than ours. I was impressed with Hill, though - you've got a good one there.'"



taking carries into account

warrington top 3 meter makers (ratch excluded as he is the anomaly due to length field try)

westwood - 20 carries totaling 157m gain = average 7.85m per carry
hill -15 carries totaling 122m gain = average 8.1m per carry
morley - 14 carries totaling 110m gain = average 7.85m per carry

wigan top 3 meter makers

lima - 16 carries totaling 92m gain = average 5.75m per carry
o'loughlin - 18 carries totaling 74m gain = average 4.1m per carry
hansen - 11 carries totaling 62m gain = average 5.6m per carry

interestingly though i only used forwards but 4 0f the top 8 top meter makers for wigan are backs but i think that just shows the way that the warrington kicking game pinned you back as they will be kick return meters.

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Quote: pies-r-us "A good post and I understand your point, but in saying that, if Wire lose to London this week does that still make them the best team in SL or would that be London because they have had a recent run of good form. Games will be affected by many things, injuries, suspension and rotation. Wigan have shown that form may be transient, only at the end of the season will we know which team was the most competent, till then it’s just snap shots of form.'"


London aren't in the top 2, Wigan and Wire are. Over the course of the season we gain an impression who has performed the best via league positions.
1st played 2nd, 2nd dominated 1st. I don't think being in the top two now is simply a snap shot in of form considering we are now in Aug.

Now seriously, who do you think are the top two team in SL? Do you think perhaps London? Do you honestly think London have a chance of winning the league or GF?

Please. don't try to debate for the sake of debating. This is getting a little silly now.

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Quote: Last Son of Wigan "London aren't in the top 2, Wigan and Wire are. Over the course of the season we gain an impression who has performed the best via league positions.
1st played 2nd, 2nd dominated 1st. I don't think being in the top two now is simply a snap shot in of form considering we are now in Aug.

Now seriously, who do you think are the top two team in SL? Do you think perhaps London? Do you honestly think London have a chance of winning the league or GF?

Please. don't try to debate for the sake of debating. This is getting a little silly now.'"


Please do not take offence when none was meant. I only expanded your comments to show how another point of view could be put to your words. Debate is what these forums are for, you should not expect to have your say and then ask for others to accept it without comment, that’s not what it’s all about, and anyway I only passed comment once. Again I was not stirring it, or trying to be offensive, and after all I did say it was a good post in the first place

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England M-Samoa M
Sun 29th Sep
L1 25 Rochdale26-46Hunslet
CH 28 Barrow24-26Widnes
CH 28 Bradford50-0Swinton
CH 28 Dewsbury28-8Sheffield
CH 28 Wakefield72-6Doncaster
CH 28 Whitehaven23-20Halifax
CH 28 York16-6Featherstone
Sat 28th Sep
CH 28 Toulouse64-16Batley
SL 28 Warrington23-22St.Helens
NRL 30 Penrith26-6Cronulla
Fri 27th Sep
SL 28 Salford6-14Leigh
NRL 30 Melbourne48-18Sydney
Sun 22nd Sep
CH 27 Batley28-14Swinton
CH 27 Halifax14-10Bradford
CH 27 Swinton20-22Doncaster
L1 24 Hunslet18-14Midlands
L1 24 Keighley26-22Rochdale
WSL2024 15 LeedsW10-12York V
WSL2024 15 St.HelensW18-4WiganW
This is an inplay table and live positions can change.
Mens Betfred Super League XXVIII ROUND : 1
 PLDFADIFFPTS
Wigan 27 721 336 385 44
Warrington 28 761 341 420 42
Hull KR 27 719 327 392 42
Leigh 28 580 404 176 33
Salford 28 556 561 -5 32
St.Helens 28 618 411 207 30
 
Catalans 27 475 427 48 30
Leeds 27 530 488 42 28
Huddersfield 27 468 658 -190 20
Castleford 27 425 735 -310 15
Hull FC 27 328 894 -566 6
LondonB 27 317 916 -599 6
This is an inplay table and live positions can change.
Betfred Championship 2024 ROUND : 1
 PLDFADIFFPTS
Wakefield 26 1010 262 748 50
Toulouse 25 744 368 376 35
Bradford 26 678 387 291 34
York 27 655 469 186 30
Widnes 26 551 475 76 29
Featherstone 26 622 500 122 28
 
Sheffield 26 626 526 100 28
Doncaster 26 498 619 -121 25
Halifax 26 509 650 -141 22
Batley 26 422 591 -169 22
Barrow 25 442 720 -278 19
Swinton 27 474 670 -196 18
Whitehaven 25 437 826 -389 18
Dewsbury 27 348 879 -531 4
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