I understand he generally plays with 8 or 10 on his back at club level (2nd row for Tonga). My point was more concerned with how he plays rather than where. He has a strong-running 2nd row approach with a good offload and reminds me of a BMM type rather than a metre making grafter like Walmsley. I'm not saying he isn't good, more that his game isn't suited to the Walmsley role which leaves you in a similar position to this year (especially with Woolfe still in charge). I think he and Walmsley could make a very effective partnership, as it goes.

As I said earlier, once you move past the starting 2, it becomes a lot less convincing that even your front row is 'better'. Lees is an unknown quantity. He has shown very little since his return. He may come good but it's not a given. Then we're into your 4th prop or, to put it another way, a prop that will play as often and for as many minutes as Walmsley and Paasi, and that, like it or not, is LMS or Amor. That's weak. If he was 5th/6th choice I'd take your point. However, he's essentially your Clubb; someone who will be playing far more than he should.

Roby has been a great. He's still excellent, but he's coming to the end of his career. End of next season, when the big games come around, he'll be a year older. As good as he is he's been no better than Powell this year (obviously you may disagree). Next year, who knows?

Where I would absolutely disagree though is on your contention that yours is better as a unit. You've had 'better' packs than us for years yet we've almost exclusively been able to bully you. We showed it again that, minus Walmsley, we were able to bully you. Next year we won't be starting with the same disadvantage as we have over the last decade or so. Even if you think you still shade it, I think you'd have to agree it's much closer than in recent seasons.

Add another top prop, which rumour suggests we are doing, and the balance would tip strongly in our favour.

I agree it's closer since we lost Thompson and you gained Singleton. But last year we beat you 4 times and all 4 times we absolutely destroyed your pack. In the semi final last year I think your starting props made less than 20m between them. I wouldn't be making a judgement based purely on our last meeting which a few people (not necessarily you) seem to be doing.

last year you had Holbrook

I was typing out my reasons why Saints aren’t what they were last year and why I see longer term cracks appearing but it was like an essay. This sums it up very neatly. He could go on to be the best coach in the game and he’s a huge loss. Saints are still favourites for the title IMO but they’re going to have some job on trying to keep their favourites tag as guys like Roby and Coote walk away, on the back of the exits of Thompson but in particular Holbrook already.

I know very very little of their new signings for 2021. I read about the place and they seem to be solid enough but an improvement on Thompson/Taia? I’d be amazed if they were and if you’re replacing players with ones not as good, you ain’t improving.

I think that’s a good point but I would counter with the fact out Props at the time were at both extremes of the career spectrum.

We have Flower and Clubb who are near the end of their careers and we have the rest of the lads who were relative novices.

This year the younger lads have gained more valuable experience and the older lads have been relied on less. We look to be moving on our ageing lads whilst Saints are signing them up for another year.

I don’t expect t us to win SL this year, I believe it is a year too soon for our young Props, as was highlighted in the semi against Leeds whose more experienced Props did a number on them, next year though I think they will be a match for most with a good off season behind them, another years experience.

Bullock is twice the player he was last year and getting better. Same for Powell and Partington. Last year we didn't have Havard or Singleton (and perhaps another prop still to come). Can you honestly point to a single area where your pack has improved compared to last year? That's before we even get to the seeming gulf in how they're performing under Woolfe compared to under Holbrook.

And of course Bateman wasn't here last year either...

Roby is better this year, which is crazy at his age but it’s true.
Bentley has improved dramatically too.

We have missed Thompson massively of course and he’s probably the biggest factor in us not being as dominant this year, moreso than the gulf between Woolf and Holbrook. Although I do agree with NK that Holbrook is a fantastic coach with a huge career ahead of him.

I agree with you in terms of your pack being on the up, not doubting that. I’m just saying until you’re consistently getting on top of us in that department we can’t write the Saints pack off which is what it looks like is happening here. You’ve beaten us once in 2 years and we were missing our best prop. So I think I little bit of perspective is needed that’s all.

But there’s no denying Wigan’s pack is on the up like I said and you’re looking stronger for 2021, whereas Saints have an element of the unknown about us with 3 new signings coming in. If those signings turn out to be similar to Sia Soliola or Zeb Taia for example then we are laughing. If they turn out like Josh Perry and Chris Flannery then we have an issue

You signed Liam Watts

Bently is a 2nd row not a prop

thats correct but 1 of them we had 80 percent or more of our first team players missing, you cant have it both ways

Haha I wasn’t even counting that one to be fair. In terms of a gauge of where the two teams are at right now that game is completely irrelevant.

I'll take your opinion on Bentley as I'm sure you know more about him than me but I think I've seen most Saints games this year and he certainly hasn't stuck out as anything special in my mind in the same way as, say, Havard has, even allowing for cherry and white specs. Roby has been good this season, no doubt, but better than last? Anecdotally I'd take issue with that but if the stats bear you out then fair enough.

Tbh though, a youngster improving and Roby still not losing much (or slightly better if that's correct) is not enough to keep you ahead of our pack next year. My opinion, of course. We are offering way too much improvement next year to still be behind a pack that's basically standing still at best or, I'd argue, going backwards since the loss of Thompson.

P.S. just seen your post on Redvee. I agree that Sezer would make a massive difference to you and would definitely go some way to evening things up next year. Is that a possibility or just a wish list sort of thing?