I see similarities between the Lewis/Smith situation.

People want to see Nsemba play but ultimately there is a lot for him to work on. He’s a freak of an athlete who we want to see play but the coaches will be patient and bring him through when they feel he is ready.

He’s yet to play a full season in SL, Bateman is a tough battle hardened player who won’t let you down on occasions like this.

I personally don’t subscribe to the give him a shirt for experience. Test shirts need to mean more than that. You need to be ready and it’s not an arena to blood a player. We need to win this series, at the moment Bateman is best placed to do that in view of the coaches and it’s hard to disagree on the evidence of yesterday.

The only thing I'd disagree on here is you don't need both Radley and Knowles. One or the other. Both are capable of 80 mins and nothing is added by the substitution. That's where Nsemba could get game time and actually add to the rotation instead of what is basically a wasted interchange.

I agree but would you have him starting, I wouldn't.
If he was to come on from the bench, who would you have left out from the four subs yesterday?

Interestingly, assuming Thompson is going to play next week, who gets left out.
Maybe the MRP can do us a favour and ban a few!!

We were sat in the South Stand and had to laugh when Welsby and then Lewis both celebrated with the fans in front of the stand they were goading only weeks/months previously. I love that sort of twist when it comes to internationals and back anyone in an England shirt to the hilt but some people just can't find it within themselves. I look at other forums and on social media and there is definitely an element of Rugby League fans who want us to fall flat on our faces, so Wane gets the boot. He can't really win in these sort of series because if he wins, he should've won by more and if he loses, he's getting hammered. Wane needs that Ashes series next year more than any other Rugby League person in the country. I think he's made for a series where we are genuine underdogs.

That was the change for me and in no way shape or form because Knowles plays for Saints. You just don't need 2 loose forwards in your 17. The Aussies aren't playing Yeo and then carrying a second 13 on the bench and that goes for sides across the world and in both major leagues. I wouldn't have had an issue even if Wane decided to play Knowles as a prop from the bench and then leave out McMeekan, Burgess, Lees or Havard but to split that 13 role seems pointless.

Thompson and Nsemba both should be involved on Saturday and that is not Wigan bias, that is because they are comfortably in our best 17 players, with one our best prop and one undoubtedly one of our best 3 second rowers (and to me the best balance of a bench is always 2 props, a second rower and a utility or second hooker).

I wouldn't start him no. I also agree with those that say Knowles is a waste of a sub. The only reason I can assume he is on the bench is if they want to move him or Radley to 9 so that Clark doesn't do 80 mins. At Saints Bell works well as an interchange (or did do before last season

) but Radley is world class and capable of doing 80 mins.

I'd have Nsemba off the bench and probably replacing Knowles

Can you imagine if we scrape a hard fought 2-1 over the Aussies and win the Ashes for the first time in over half a century with Waney in charge?

Agree. Nothing to do with club bias as you say. I want England to compete and ideally beat the Aussies and I don't think we can pretend to carry two 13s against them and not suffer. I know where you're coming from regarding Knowles as a prop rather than spelling Radley but I don't even agree with that option as Lees and Knowles are too similar at prop. There are better options such as Robbie Mulhearn for the extra prop role and he offers something different. One of Lees or Knowles (probably Lees) and one of Radley or Knowles (definitely Radley). Hard on Knowles maybe, as he hasn't let us down, but that's the harsh reality, or should be, at international level.

For me, it's the one area of weakness in Wane's 'loyalty first' approach. As Stu says, Radley is genuine world class. Play him for the full 80. If he's not available Knowles is the next cab off the rank. In the meantime get another potential world class player in Nsemba on the field. That can only benefit England going forward. Can you imagine if his first international outing turns out to be in the probable Ashes series next year because of a decision to play an extra 13 when we didn't need to?

He's played 44 first team games. What's the minimum required for an international cap? We aren't playing prime Australia, this Samoa team is average.

Would you have been happy, if Isa had been fit this year, that he started most games ahead of Nsemba because he is a "tough battle hardened player who won’t let you down"?

It wouldn't be my choice playing Knowles as a prop but if it meant getting Nsemba in, I could live with it. Having both him and Lees in doesn't work though as you say. I've posted elsewhere that Wane's greatest strength can be his biggest weakness and that is his mentality of 'X player has done well for me in the past' so he stays in. That cannot always be applied when you have glaring top quality options staring you in the face but it does build trust and loyalty and keeps a level of consistency within a squad but I just don't see how he leaves Nsemba out again this weekend. You know it's a strange decision when even the biggest Wigan haters out there are crying out for Nsemba to come in.

Same kind of argument re.Marshal, by a country mile the top try scorer this season but even as a Wigan fan I'd have Ashton and Young ahead of him at international level.
Sometimes it's just hard lines when it comes to international selections.

If he earned his shirt over Isa I would be happy for him to take his place this year in our team.

What people don’t seem to understand sometimes with players is as Rogues pointed out teams need balance.

KPP was very good on Sunday.

Bateman is the proven grafter who knows who to win international matches. He earned that right and he was very good on the day. To suggest either second row should be dropped from that starting team is a big call.

The bench worked very very well so who do you drop there?

Nsemba is far from the finished article, which is a frightening prospect for others, but he does have weaknesses in his game. He needs to be nurtured in the right environments. It’s his first time in camp his first experience and he will be learning all the time. I’m happy if he doesn’t play because he will have got a lot out of this.

It doesn’t matter who you play the international shirt should be respected and I know Wane has the same opinion. You don’t give away international shirts or use it to blood players especially not against a pretty strong Samoan team.

It’s a bit like the clamour for Marshall to get a shirt, I’d love to see it and I wouldn’t swap him for Ashton in the SL comp, but Ashton is a better fit for International games as it’s a different arena.

Nsemba warmed up with the team on Sunday, he has been around all the prep both on and off the field, Bateman and KPP were excellent and McMeeken went very well too. Those lads have earned the right to retain their shirts.

Radley was visibly out on his feet prior to being subbed due to how hard he worked on either side of the ball and the intensity he played at. It’s ok saying he can play 80 but these are very big bodies and they really lifted the intensity in the second half.

If there is one change to be made it’s probably Lees for Thompson as I think without the ban that’s the way we would have lined up and I think whilst Lees was solid he maybe didn’t do enough to make the shirt his own.

Nsemba will get his time, if he plays next week fantastic, I will be there cheering him on and hoping he dominates but if he doesn’t I can understand why not and I think the experience he will have gained by being in camp will be valuable if he plays or not for his development.

Agreed, said same in my post below. SL and international level are very different and what works for one doesn’t always work for the other.

Nsemba is an athletic freak and is made for the test arena but whilst not an athletic freak to the same extent Bateman is also built for that arena and once again backed that up with his performance on Sunday.

I’d love to see Nsemba on the bench on Saturday, I’ve a suspicion he may get that spot, but I’m also fine with it if he doesn’t and think if he isn’t picked it’s a valid decision.

See post below

Sorry meant to quote this one

Not trying to turn this into a Saints v Wigan argument but Lees was the only forward bar Radley to run more than 100m and he also made 25 tackles in his 40 min stint

He had a decent game yesterday.

I have a feeling Luke will com in for Havard and Junior in on the bench in place of Knowles. Having two 13's may have been insurance/planned knowing that Radley hasn't had much game time due to his recent injury and early exit from the play offs. Hopefully better for it next week and we get a full 80 mins from him.

Lees should at least be on the bench , Burgess should be the one dropped for Thompson

Thought Lees went ok can't see him being dropped from the 17.
Think Waney will go with Thompson and Burgess as staring props.
I'd be very surprised to see Nsemba selected as this is his first season in SL. Perhaps Wane brought him into the squad to let him know what an International squad is. Their abilities, standards and expectations.
Feel Ashton will keep his place and Marshy will sit this one out too.

I’m not saying he didn’t I just personally felt Havard went better….but I’ve not watched it back on tv which often changes my perception of a game from watching it live.

I’d think Thompson comes in for Lees of Knowles as his form has been excellent this year, but again he may miss out due to the ban and someone else taking advantage.

It’s great to have options and debate around the depth of an English team!

He did well Lees. I didn't think he should've made the dream team but he's a good player. At international level I feel like he's valuable because like Havard, he's fit as a fiddle and can deal with a fast paced game. You just need to make sure you've got some size/power around him.

Thompson will come in for Knowles. Knowles is a long minutes player and doesn't have the impact doing shorter stints

Watched it back tonight. Lees went well so he definitely won't be the one to make way. I thought the half back debate was stopped in its tracks. Smith was superb and everything came off the back of him. My MOM.

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For some reason I’m not able to quote but in response to @Phuzzy, I actually don’t think there is in reality a half back debate because Smith is the only natural half back in the squad.

The debate really should be Williams or Lewis not Smith or Lewis.

Smith is a natural halfback and both Lewis and Williams are highbrid 5/8ths who could do a job at half back.

Whilst Lewis and Smith both wear 7 for their club sides they play different roles and Smith is by far the better half back of the 2 with his kicking game, organisation play and game management.

That’s not slating Lewis because he does things that Smith can’t too particularly as a running threat and whilst both Williams and Lewis could “do a job” playing the half back role neither are as good as Smith is in that position.

that was virtually the pre-match debate, and all 3 former pros (Wilkin, Brown and Peacock) picked Smith because of his control and ability to do it in the big games

Wilkin did show some stats which showed the difference between Smith and Lewis, but it just really showed that Lewis ran the ball more / backed up, as he scored more tries, made more metres and more tackle bursts. We all know that Smith rarely takes on the line, but creates space for those around him, and his tactical kicking in game is outstanding