Once again i know nothing about you, you know nothing about me despite what you think.

Many people i speak to assess performance by the win and loss colum, it seemed to me you were doing the same.

Improvement to me suggests improvement. You stated we have improved since the arrival of Gleeson etc, when in my opinion we player well against Saints game 1 but lack cohesion, maybe due to the basic style we had been playing? We then slipped well back vs Celtic, improved slightly against Wakefield then pulled a superb performance out of the bag vs Saints.

The Wakefield game is a big one simply due to the fact it is the cup. The Hull KR game and the Wire game in my opinion will show us how far we have come because i do not think we can get away with an average performance and win, hence it will point towards some consistency.

This is the one thing that shocks me with the die hard Noble fans, for the last 2/3 years the people that slate him have been calling for the tactics we use when we play well, but we to date have only seen them employed once in a blue moon, when the game is lost or in the playoffs when we look less than polished doing them against a top team.

They then come back on here and call us for pointing out the issues, that they seem to support regardless of how we play.

First up, to say 'once again' implies you have said something before. I think you'll find this is the first time you've said this, so I'm not sure what your point is here...

Moving on to the post proper. I asked you if improvement, in your opinion, is always linear. So far you have ducked the issue yet what you describe above is non-linear improvement. It's just that you prefer to see it as an 'isolated performance' for some reason. For someone employed in what amounts to a performance/improvent based job, I find this strange. Let me re-iterate...

Saints 1st Match. Good performance (we have both agreed on this point, yes?) However the defence was weak whenever pressured as shown by the fact that Saints were able to turn every attacking opportunity into points. Also we had a distinct inability to finish good lead up work. Some even said clueless in around the opposition line. I wouldn't go that far myself but would agree that this was something that needed improving. Which brings us to....

Celtic. Enthusiasm and intensity were not as good as the Saints game but as I said in a previous post, rightly or wrongly this is often the case with 'lesser' games. It's easier to get up for big games against Saints/Leeds etc than it is against the likes of celtic etc. However I will accept this as a qualified 'regression'. On the plus side, Our defence was better, if not perfect, but the big improvement came in our ability to finish the good approach play. Something we weren't able to do in the previous match. Also we managed to turn our superiority into a win on the back of it...something we had failed to do in the previous game. An improvement? Well on 3 fronts yes, although not the quantum leap we would have liked to have seen perhaps. let's, for the sake of argument, call it a curate's egg of an improvement. Which brings us to....

Wakefield. Improved intensity and enthusiasm from the previous game. Maintained the ability to finish the approach work and an all round improvement in attack. To date our best attacking performance of the season. In defence a major step up from both previous matches as we denied Wakefield any clear cut attacking opportunities with ball in hand. However, still gave away too much cheap possession and didn't respect the ball enough. Gifted Wakefield 2 of their tries. Improvement over the previous game? Certainly. Over the 1st Saints game? In terms of enthusiasm about the same, attack.. better, goal line and general defence.. better, errors...worse, result/ability to turn attacking opportunities into points...quantum leap forward! Which brings us to...


Saints 2nd Match. Enthusiasm/intensity improved still further. Attack and ability to turn pressure into points..about the same, Defence...better, errors/respecting the ball...quantum leap forward!

All in all the very definition of a non-linear improvement! Good performances have to be taken in context of the performances that preceeded them. If you think that it's an absolute (something I seriously doubt you take into your own job!) then you don't live in the real world. I have been watching this game for over 20 years and I have yet to see a team go from an inability to win to consitant world beaters 'overnight'! Improvement is taken a step at a time and a good performance should be taken in that context.

You continue to imply things about me that are way off the mark, not sure why you are going there to be honest.

Improvement is improvement but we have been here before so forgive my cartwheels when we still remain 9th in the league.

You seem to think i am slating Noble after this performance when infact i think he did a great job, and am happy to say he has played himself into a much more secure position. Fair play to him.

Lets look at the facts we have played poorly for most of this season, hence our position in the table when we have played a game more than the teams around us.

Other teams are also playing themselves into some form, the test will now come over the next few weeks especially the Hull KR and Wire games in my opinion, as we will be playing 2 teams who are in Hulls case near the top of there game and in Wire's case certainly on the up. The Celtic and Trinity performances came over 2 teams who were both off the boil, i do not think you can quantify improvement against 2 teams that produced probably there worst performances of the season against us.

yes i agree brian noble reads this forum

So in short Jon, you can find no reason to counter the argument other than to quote our league position which, as you full well know has nothing to do with how we have played over the last 3 games and everything to do with our poor start to the season. Think we'll leave it at that then, other than to say I'm not sure which implications I'm making which are wrong about you. Perhaps that is better left to a PM though.

What is the argument exactly?

I am not a Conditioner for Wakefield Trinity.

Well given you accused me of not properly reading your posts I'm surprised we've posted so many times and you're still not sure what the argument is!

I detailed above why I considered there to be a consistent, if non-linear, improvement over the last 3 or 4 games. Something you dispute, yet you haven't pointed out where you consider the points I made to be wrong.

I thought you have said in the past that you were on the conditioning staff at a rugby club? I assumed that it was Wakefield. Sorry if that assumption was incorrect, but it doesn't negate the points I made regarding your approach to the job just because it isn't at Wakefield. That is, assuming you are a conditioner of course....

What does what i do or not do have to do with you, or my opinion?

Forgive me Phuzzy but i do find it funny that you were the person i was "arguing" with, now you decide it was meaningless? I was looking forward to your response.

I think i have given a decent response to the "argument", never considered it that actually, but you chose to say its closed fair enough. Not sure why you have attempted to get personal when you clearly know nothing about me, to be honest mate think that says more about you than i could.

Well I think a fair definition of argument is two people 'arguing' *cough* two different sides of a debate. However the fact that you once again choose to be pedantic and use veiled insults says more about you than I could!

Jon, as I said, I consider it meaningless because 1) you're not reading my posts or choosing not to answer them properly. 2) you keep regurgitating such facts as 'we are in 9th' even that has no bearing on the ponts I've raised. 3) You single out the least significant points from my post and choose to answer those whilst continually ignoring the points which I am trying to put across. 4) you seem to think the point of debate these days (and I have to say I've noticed this from most of your recent posts) is to prove yourself right rather than offer/take/discuss interesting points. and finally 5) you seem to think that making snide and condesending comments whilst accusing other posters of 'getting personal' somehow absolves you of your actions.

Well, I for one consider that to be meaningless debate and was the reason I said the matter was closed. It was simply going nowhere. Now may I suggest we take this to PM to spare anyone else having to suffer this dross!

I cannot be bothered with this anymore to be honest, my thoughts and counter argument is made in the 3rd post up from the bottom of the last page, which you have chosen to pick 1 section of and ignore the content.

Im happy to leave it at that.

Have you 2 thought about marriage, you would make a great couple.