Ok mate sorry but the RFL need all our clubs outside the holy grail league to say And form our own league with tv rights because im sure if it was run properly it would be more successful than SL as our league is by far more competitive and to the neutral looking in it would make more entertaining tv IMO.

Remember when you would feel 'nervous' just before before a match...unless it's a challenge cup game, thanks to the RFL, that has now gone. Each fan feels differently I know, but it can be 'dressed up' all you like, but ticking a box guarantees beggar all. EVERY game is a friendly, my mindset is used to it now though, no nervousness/excitement/disappointment...do the RFL care, do they **** ?

I remember all the outrage of fans with petitions, backed up by the media about the mergers in 1995. i myself was annoyed by it at the time. But all them people that won the day didn't turn up when their clubs needed them afterwards. Now that is the impression I get even if P&R came back. The same loyal fans would still be going and IF we got to the play off final for the holy grail they would come out of the woodwork. But who finances the clubs continuing cycle of chasing promotion when the fans only turn up for the big one, or maybe the odd derby?
The game needs a lot of better ideas than bring P&R back and dilute the money from SL clubs by sharing it with clubs that aren't in SL.

Can anyone answer the question about 19th August 2007, when just over a 1000 turned up when we was chasing promotion to SL? That must have been a big hole to fill financially for Arthur when he was subsidizing our ambitions.
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We're not daft, yes it would take time, but we have a small fan base. First game back in the top flight, v Huddersfield in SL 2005, just over 4000 speccys. But surely clubs attendances 'would' improve with promotion/relegation...it has to !
My 1st ever game v Hull in 1975, we won 6-0...attendance 450 !
I do not have my 'rose tinted specs' on, but I take your point.

I don't know the exact date but I do remember just before we went up and when in SL (and coming down again) how the club seemed to hit a rut on & off the park.
Even as good as it was going up THAT night v Whitehaven I get the feeling it wasn't as good as the feeling we would have had if we had gone up from THAT Semi final defeat v Widnes in the year we was just about stand out on & off the park with a young Turley mixing it with some outstanding old pro's (and yet in our Promotion year we won the lot !).
I'd say for 3 years after SL people fell out of favour with the club (for umpteen reasons), certainly as someone who had been to most games until this season the win over Hull KR in the NRC Final was great but was flat - fans familiar with success at a lower level perhaps gutted we had royally blown out chance in SL by being so inept on & off the park (although Wigan council certainly hindered the off the park stuff) didn't go and I felt it was like the diehards of the years when such teams as South Wales (in Cardiff) had beat us was the ones following the club again.

I actually think Millward returning was a big turn in events for Leigh and the feel good factor started to come back - as did the crowds but by now the game had lost a lot of support as Leigh (like many others in RL area) became 'TV Football' towns, football is the king in North West England and when Wigan are booted off the ground for Wigan Athletic you know RL isn't at the top of its game.
However as mentioned Millward got RL played like we hadn't seen since perhaps Terzis left and the club started to interact with its support base again - the NRC win v Halifax was absolutley fantastic - 100% better than the win v Hull KR (Although not as good as the first win we had v Keighley - thats when everyone started to believe Leigh had turned the corner and was on our way back).

Now though its is hard to get too worked up over a match, each Monday I go out for a pint with a Salford fan - we are both probably people who have spent far too much money watching RL at club and country across the world - we are now both probably more interetsted in what our football club does as we can see a clear pathway for success driven by what makes us go to the game in the first place - to enjoy watching what the players do on the field and the raw passion and emotion it generates.
He is frustrated with Salford for the fact he feels the players can be perhaps going through the motions (he is certain a lead at London recently would not have been thrown away if the players thought defeat put them in a relegation dogfight) his views are shared by people such as Sam Tomkins who also believes in SL many players at the bootom end clubs are 'on holiday' before the season ends.
Me , well I see Leigh as just in a pre season event except it lasts all year until the Play offs begin (this year the CC run was a breath of fresh air though), I like the matches when I'm there and still enjoy it but I'm now in the bracket of forcing myself to go and that bit of excitment that a result can 'really' meant something can be missing.
He thinks Salford would benefit from a spell in the Championship to 'get back to basics and be given a kick up the backside', I feel Leigh would benefit being in a league that could deliver a step up to the team that was the best each season.

In contrast we go to the football and lament about how 'I wish RL had this again' as we see the club slowly build its way through the footballing pyramid with just the usual ground improvements required to make the step up as a 'barrier' to promotion.
Of course there is investment - but I'd say all bar a handful of sports clubs in Europe are run out of passion by people who know the investment will never see a return.

Everyones opinions are different and many believe RL has more skilful players, more younger players who are good enough to be in SL and the gates are up.
I've nothing against that opinion as people are entitiled to it.
However I often ponder can the game afford to keep losing fans at the smaller clubs as eventually people will look around and wonder where did everyone go.

I remember saying when Celtic Crusaders went to SL in Bridgend via a franchise that I didn't see it as expanding in the true sense, we are just moving fans around.
For the extra 1,000 fans we gained in Bridgend we had lost a 1,000 in Whitehaven - the trick to expansion is maintaining what you have making it far better and moving into new areas with a product and enthusiasm that people will think ' I want to be part of that'.
I look at how excited I should be about the new clubs joining the RL 'family' next season (and I'm pleased to see them - all are most welcome additions) but I do feel it tinged with the reality that the RL family they join is one going through a bitter divorce and that many will view them as clubs that will recieve a unfair amount of help - probably totally untrue but a cloak and dagger governing body won't help the perception that the game is run as 'one rule for one, another rule for another'.
One hopes the new clubs don't suffer a 'Celtic' syndrome as undoubtedly the RFL's hamfisted approach to that club coupled with the biase shown from day one bought Celtic Crusaders more enemys than friends which was a great shame.

The irony, I don't know who we played on 19th August 2007 or the official gate, I do know though that if things pan out and Leigh ends up a feeder league that gate in 2007 will be looked back as a good one - and that is surely bad for Leigh and bad for RL.

Awesome, awesome post Jenky, spot on with every word.

(I will also note that we most certainly weren't on the brink of promotion in 2007, and personally I thought that season was worse than even the 'relegation' season of 2009!)

We played Doncaster. The Whipping boys of that season. The reason it sticks in my mind is I bombed it to HP from the Manchester Derby, after giving the dark side another nose bleed. I was buzzing until I got into the ground (or morgue) where hardly anyone was even watching the game never mind the size of the crowd. It was depressing and boring. Mainly due to the result being a formality, even tho we was bad that season. There was no fire in the belly for this game, and fans where deflated that season - funnily enough it was chasing promotion, the incentive that is keeping 3000 fans away (they must have been stuck in traffic). When in reality its the 101 excuses, and the fact someone like Arthur puts money in to fill the money void, and we have fans on the wings waiting for the big game to turn up.

Paul' you are always sensible with your posts and whilst I do not think Leigh could be competative in the top league at the moment it is not just about Leigh is it ?

For a competative sport which is'in the main regional' clubs have to have the opportunity to be in the top league.

Fev for eg have been undisputably the most competative Championship club for 3 seasons but where are they going ? Nowhere.

Why ? So we stick with licenscing and what happens ? You know and everyone knows the folk who watch get fed up. OK not all but enough for a club being ambitious to give up on that ambition because their fan base diminishes.

Without ambition or a reason to be ambitious clubs will not grow.

Licenscing could never work and needs to be scrapped.

Even in 2009 when we looked like going into the lowest tier our gates increased as we tried to avoid relegation.

You have to give every club a chance and under the current system the game is about 5 teams and every other clubs fans do not have anything to care about.

At least in footie lesser clubs fans still turn up to see the best teams in the hope they will still be playing against them the following season and that might explain why gates for those clubs in both promotion and relegation battles go up.

There are other reasons why fans can't be bothered anymore.
Firstly, the top 5 or 6 clubs take all the young talent at an early age. Then, they come back later for the ones they missed. This stops any smaller club building a decent team. It happens in footy but healthy transfer fees are involved which enables the smaller clubs to survive.
How must Salford fans feel when they get a new ground, appear to be getting a decent side together and then Pies and Wire come along and take there star players. They must get disillusioned.
Something is wrong when Wire, for example, have so many players that they have a top team plus nearly as many again on loan at SL and championship clubs and still have enough for the 21's, 18's (or whatever the run). Surely it would make many clubs stronger if the talent was distributed better. Don't tell me that these players would not develop if not with SL clubs - (Chris Hill is the perfect example) and we are not exactly producing players to compete with the Aussies are we. Something is wrong when SL clubs have to have players on loan midway through a season - surely their squad should be big enough.
Secondly, referees (incl. video refs) are so inconsistant that folk get fed of watching games were the momentum of the game and possibly the outcome is often decided by the ref as he choses when and what he wants to see (things he's let go many times in the same game).
How forward was the Wire pass last weekend against the Pies? If the officials can't see when a ball is passed 2 yards in front of a line and is caught 2 yards + behind it we have no chance. Our games is a joke.

Great post.

Licensing isn't ideal, but at the moment there isn't enough money in the game to create 2 full time leagues. Diluting current money from SL clubs to other clubs will not help the game for obvious reasons - this would just accelerate the financial crisis of current SL clubs. Anyone with half a brain knows a 2 tiered comp would be beneficial, including the RFL and especially to Sky. The principle needs to be sold to Sky, and maybe it been tried or maybe the opportunity was missed when Sky televised the Championship and didn't see the potential we see.
As for fans getting fed up - of course they do. The reasons are many, with some using franchising as 1 of the excuses. For Leigh we haven't contested a GF since 2004. No doubt there will be possibly double our average going to GF if we get there this season. why do they not support the club now to get us there? Why would you want to see the ending of the season and not see how we got there? But this is what happens with or without P&R. The weekly rounds would see little change for the better, if any. I know because I have seen and experienced it. Its frustrating, and must have been even more so for the leigh board in 2004 with our most successful season in modern era and crowds where rubbish - but that was down to a few of the 101 excuses including a new one of Abram not waving and smiling enough.
Promotion is there at the moment, despite some predicting the drawbridge is being pulled up clubs have entered SL since the system was brought in. We can get in SL if we get off field sorted and prove we can run a full time club with a competitive team and add something to the SL competition.
P&R does not substantially increase attendances for the bread and butter games - they would probably increase for a do or die game, but how many times does that happen over the years never mind during a season? Fev I can sympathize with to a point, but they have a major hurdle of a small ground that serves its purpose at the moment but couldn't cope in SL, especially with so many derbies - in my opinion that is correct. Blackpool would not have been allowed in PL without major ground improvements.
Football there is no comparison because they have a lot of money and the advantage of a truly worldwide fan base. Its the biggest sport on the planet. Leigh RMI on a foggy cold night had 7000+ on against Fulham going back a few years, even though they hardly ever got over 1000 on normally and their fan base was very small.

I'll grant you that's a poor crowd but in the years between '99 and '06 when we were genuinely chasing promotion, I can give you several 4,000+ crowds vs Widnes, Oldham, Huddersfield & Salford (with more than a couple above 6,000). Our games at Widnes during this time were regularly getting over 6,000+ (and I remember one game with a crowd over 8,000). Widnes' crowds vs Castleford & Salford pre-licensing were in excess of 8,000.

In 2001, we played Workington on a Wednesday night and Rochdale at home on the Sunday, who were both mid-table at best, and got 3,000+ in both games.

I think if we played the same two teams at home over the next week, I think we'd struggle to hit 3,000 cumulatively. The days of a Championship league match attracting over 8,000 speccies are long gone, even over 6,000 is a pipe dream.

Highest crowd in the Championship this season is 2,806 between the top two teams in the league. We we're hitting that regularly back in 2001.

P&R might not be the answer to all our problems but it would certainly do us more good than licensing is. The crowd you mentioned before was probably a one off. It could become a regular occurance if things continue down this road.

I wasn't highlighting the Doncaster game to show as typical example. I was highlighting this game because it had nothing to do with franchising, but just like many other games have been poorly supported. Had this game been after 2008 it would have been used as conclusive proof that franchising was damaging our game. You have no proof P&R would enable the game to flourish. 2001 is 11 years ago, and 1992 is 20 years ago. The examples to use are 2004 and 2006 when P&R was in place, and they are poor examples so won't be used because they don't fit in with your argument.
Jenky, and yourself to a lesser extent are using bygone times as examples, when the reality was the trend was downwards 2004 onwards well before 2009. The landscape in 1992 for example was totally different to now where football with the help of TV and the glamour of the game has crushed RL's potential somewhat. Convincing the new generation to visit old RL grounds, or even new ones week in week out isn't easy especially when most of the ground is empty and that includes some SL grounds.
Thats why I say that bringing P&R back is not the answer. There are much bigger obsticles to overcome and real imagination needed to push the game forward - money makes the world go round and sadly in this financial climate we don't have anywhere near enough.
I can agree with a lot of people on here about the RFL messing up, but in principle licensing is a very good idea if done properly.

I don't have the figures to hand, but I'd wager that in '04 & '06 we were getting crowds above 2,000. We're not even managing that at the moment. Our crowds vs. Widnes post-licensing were way down on what they were.

The figures provided may be old but they show what can be achieved with P&R in place. At the moment the best two teams in the comp are holding a steady 2,000+ average (which is fantastic (and probably in-line with our averages during '99-'06)) but where is the bumper crowd coming from? Where is the big draw that will see 6,000 people pack into POR, LSV or The Shay to see two teams battling it out for a place in the GF? Afterall, isn't the whole point of this to get the punters in?

I predict this years GF Eliminator will be lucky to see 3,000 fans, which is a massive shame because this is a great competition. Unfortunately, since licensing the fans (especially the floating ones) have voted with their feet.

I don't disagree that the theory behind licensing was a good one. If done properly it could work. However, since the inception of licensing, nothing has been done properly. There's very little transparency in the process whatsoever, everthing has been cloak & dagger, smoke & mirrors. To make matters worse, we have 3 elite clubs with their SKY money having financial difficulties, London are dying on their & we have one of the worst sponsorship deals in living memory, and we're expected to believe everything is all rosy in RL? I have very little faith in the RFL and with the SL cartel looking after one another, I don't see things getting better in the near future.

You simply don't know what gates would have been to compare to now, had the new system not come into place. But anyone can see the game has taken a big hit due to the global recession. Its not just effected gates, but also outside money coming in. And owners bank rolling clubs are now struggling to stay involved and as we found out have had to bow out suddenly.
We don't know what gate we will get for a final eliminator because we haven't been in one since 2004. As for crowds in 2004, they was bad. That was a great team we had, and we sweeped all before us, with lots of drama as a added ingredient.
I look at it this way. Under P&R Leigh will never win SL. Under licensing we can win SL. I never want to see Leigh in SL to make up the numbers, or gives us chance to Play against W1gan as an ambition. I want us to compete in SL, and build season on season to win SL within our own budget dictated by the towns enthusiasm to back the club through thick and thin.