Licensing isn't ideal, but at the moment there isn't enough money in the game to create 2 full time leagues. Diluting current money from SL clubs to other clubs will not help the game for obvious reasons - this would just accelerate the financial crisis of current SL clubs. Anyone with half a brain knows a 2 tiered comp would be beneficial, including the RFL and especially to Sky. The principle needs to be sold to Sky, and maybe it been tried or maybe the opportunity was missed when Sky televised the Championship and didn't see the potential we see.
As for fans getting fed up - of course they do. The reasons are many, with some using franchising as 1 of the excuses. For Leigh we haven't contested a GF since 2004. No doubt there will be possibly double our average going to GF if we get there this season. why do they not support the club now to get us there? Why would you want to see the ending of the season and not see how we got there? But this is what happens with or without P&R. The weekly rounds would see little change for the better, if any. I know because I have seen and experienced it. Its frustrating, and must have been even more so for the leigh board in 2004 with our most successful season in modern era and crowds where rubbish - but that was down to a few of the 101 excuses including a new one of Abram not waving and smiling enough.
Promotion is there at the moment, despite some predicting the drawbridge is being pulled up clubs have entered SL since the system was brought in. We can get in SL if we get off field sorted and prove we can run a full time club with a competitive team and add something to the SL competition.
P&R does not substantially increase attendances for the bread and butter games - they would probably increase for a do or die game, but how many times does that happen over the years never mind during a season? Fev I can sympathize with to a point, but they have a major hurdle of a small ground that serves its purpose at the moment but couldn't cope in SL, especially with so many derbies - in my opinion that is correct. Blackpool would not have been allowed in PL without major ground improvements.
Football there is no comparison because they have a lot of money and the advantage of a truly worldwide fan base. Its the biggest sport on the planet. Leigh RMI on a foggy cold night had 7000+ on against Fulham going back a few years, even though they hardly ever got over 1000 on normally and their fan base was very small.

I'll grant you that's a poor crowd but in the years between '99 and '06 when we were genuinely chasing promotion, I can give you several 4,000+ crowds vs Widnes, Oldham, Huddersfield & Salford (with more than a couple above 6,000). Our games at Widnes during this time were regularly getting over 6,000+ (and I remember one game with a crowd over 8,000). Widnes' crowds vs Castleford & Salford pre-licensing were in excess of 8,000.

In 2001, we played Workington on a Wednesday night and Rochdale at home on the Sunday, who were both mid-table at best, and got 3,000+ in both games.

I think if we played the same two teams at home over the next week, I think we'd struggle to hit 3,000 cumulatively. The days of a Championship league match attracting over 8,000 speccies are long gone, even over 6,000 is a pipe dream.

Highest crowd in the Championship this season is 2,806 between the top two teams in the league. We we're hitting that regularly back in 2001.

P&R might not be the answer to all our problems but it would certainly do us more good than licensing is. The crowd you mentioned before was probably a one off. It could become a regular occurance if things continue down this road.

I wasn't highlighting the Doncaster game to show as typical example. I was highlighting this game because it had nothing to do with franchising, but just like many other games have been poorly supported. Had this game been after 2008 it would have been used as conclusive proof that franchising was damaging our game. You have no proof P&R would enable the game to flourish. 2001 is 11 years ago, and 1992 is 20 years ago. The examples to use are 2004 and 2006 when P&R was in place, and they are poor examples so won't be used because they don't fit in with your argument.
Jenky, and yourself to a lesser extent are using bygone times as examples, when the reality was the trend was downwards 2004 onwards well before 2009. The landscape in 1992 for example was totally different to now where football with the help of TV and the glamour of the game has crushed RL's potential somewhat. Convincing the new generation to visit old RL grounds, or even new ones week in week out isn't easy especially when most of the ground is empty and that includes some SL grounds.
Thats why I say that bringing P&R back is not the answer. There are much bigger obsticles to overcome and real imagination needed to push the game forward - money makes the world go round and sadly in this financial climate we don't have anywhere near enough.
I can agree with a lot of people on here about the RFL messing up, but in principle licensing is a very good idea if done properly.

I don't have the figures to hand, but I'd wager that in '04 & '06 we were getting crowds above 2,000. We're not even managing that at the moment. Our crowds vs. Widnes post-licensing were way down on what they were.

The figures provided may be old but they show what can be achieved with P&R in place. At the moment the best two teams in the comp are holding a steady 2,000+ average (which is fantastic (and probably in-line with our averages during '99-'06)) but where is the bumper crowd coming from? Where is the big draw that will see 6,000 people pack into POR, LSV or The Shay to see two teams battling it out for a place in the GF? Afterall, isn't the whole point of this to get the punters in?

I predict this years GF Eliminator will be lucky to see 3,000 fans, which is a massive shame because this is a great competition. Unfortunately, since licensing the fans (especially the floating ones) have voted with their feet.

I don't disagree that the theory behind licensing was a good one. If done properly it could work. However, since the inception of licensing, nothing has been done properly. There's very little transparency in the process whatsoever, everthing has been cloak & dagger, smoke & mirrors. To make matters worse, we have 3 elite clubs with their SKY money having financial difficulties, London are dying on their & we have one of the worst sponsorship deals in living memory, and we're expected to believe everything is all rosy in RL? I have very little faith in the RFL and with the SL cartel looking after one another, I don't see things getting better in the near future.

You simply don't know what gates would have been to compare to now, had the new system not come into place. But anyone can see the game has taken a big hit due to the global recession. Its not just effected gates, but also outside money coming in. And owners bank rolling clubs are now struggling to stay involved and as we found out have had to bow out suddenly.
We don't know what gate we will get for a final eliminator because we haven't been in one since 2004. As for crowds in 2004, they was bad. That was a great team we had, and we sweeped all before us, with lots of drama as a added ingredient.
I look at it this way. Under P&R Leigh will never win SL. Under licensing we can win SL. I never want to see Leigh in SL to make up the numbers, or gives us chance to Play against W1gan as an ambition. I want us to compete in SL, and build season on season to win SL within our own budget dictated by the towns enthusiasm to back the club through thick and thin.

To be honest I look around me now in the North Stand and out of the 17 of us who used to stand together , theres only 4 of us now. Some dont come because their kids have grown up and lost interest, some because they have lost interest, some wont go night matches most have said its just not the same any more , we all used to meet up prematch for a drink and all go to the game together.
I remember us all going to the first game together v Salford and the stand was packed, slowly the RFL and us trying silly Friday night games are killing off our core support.

This time of the season too a few years ago we would have now been planning our Grand final day out, how many of us were going who was picking up the match tickets, who was picking up the coach tickets, we d all book on the same coach, we was all buzzing, now if we make it to the GF what does it actually mean anymore?

To be honest I look around me now in the North Stand and out of the 17 of us who used to stand together , theres only 4 of us now. Some dont come because their kids have grown up and lost interest, some because they have lost interest, some wont go night matches most have said its just not the same any more , we all used to meet up prematch for a drink and all go to the game together.
I remember us all going to the first game together v Salford and the stand was packed, slowly the RFL and us trying silly Friday night games are killing off our core support.

This time of the season too a few years ago we would have now been planning our Grand final day out, how many of us were going who was picking up the match tickets, who was picking up the coach tickets, we d all book on the same coach, we was all buzzing, now if we make it to the GF what does it actually mean anymore?

I know its sad to say but all the GF means now is a wad of cash if you can call it a wad and in some cases bragging rights but other than that nothing.I mean we lost the NRC a few week ago and it did'nt bother me as much as i thought it would ok we lost but other than losing a payday what did we actually lose a tin cup? Im a big believer of whoever wins the league is the best team in that league and ive always believed that but if you win the league it means nothing at the end of the day i like watching my team always have and if we win things its a bonus but IMO it should be mean more than a bonus but with the clowns at red hall thats all it is.I had far more excitement when we were in champ 1 trying to get promoted to the championship than im having now and we are winning things.The loss of P&R as killed our game and a lot of fans interest i will continue to watch my team as long as i can because its not my teams fault these things are in place and my team needs us supporters to continue watching them to win things or even more importantly survive.

Am I missing something? I remember us being bad enough to be relegated, but can’t remember which season recently we were actually good enough to be promoted.

It’s easy to blame low attendances on no P&R, franchising, RFL etc (none of which am I a fan of) but what have any of the clubs outside of SL actually done to attract people?

Both Starbug and myself have said before the teams compete on the pitch, off the pitch the clubs should be pro-actively working together for the greater good.

Why do we need to be good enough to promoted when we can't be

Derek are there no forcast sheets for this coming week?