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Would lowering taxes to practically nothing and raising VAT not help. Even the 'current' tax dodgers would struggle if the tax was on things we bought rather than earned ?
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Quote ="inside_man"I think what a lot of people don't realise (not necessarily directed at you btw) is that when you look throughout Europe + the US, the UK is nowhere near as bad as some countries, we haven't been remotely close to being bailed out which a few already have and Spain isn't far off being the next.
Ireland is in meltdown at the minute because of the Euro, and the labour government refused to join and it has already paid dividends, IRE is already considering rejoining sterling next year.
The main thing with the new government that has really annoyed me, is not the student fees as I semi-agree with what they are doing (the principle but not the method) but it is the instant scrapping of the schools building scheme. I know of several schools that are desperately in need of revamping and completely new buildings, contracts had been agreed, and 1 in particular was 2 weeks away from the builders moving in after the entire school had been cleared out, just to have it scrapped. Ludicrous.'"
Exactly, the Tories and the Lib Dems keep harping on about how Labour has ruined the country's finances and so on - well you had George Bush in the US who was a free market Republican who wouldn't spend a penny on welfare, and their finances got ruined....Ireland, Spain, Portugal, Greece all in worse mess than the UK, was it Labour's fault for ruining them as well?
The Tories and Lib Dems harp on about "13 years of wasteful public spending" but they both contested Labour in the 2001 and 2005 elections and neither of them fought on a platform of cutting public spending and austerity measures. The Tories fought on anti-immigration, anti-Europe, and spending more on prison building, more police on the streets, more money for defence, more money for cleaner hospitals, and tax cuts as well. Lib Dems fought on free tuition fees, increases in spending on health and education.
There was no talk about overspends and austerity measures until this last election. You had George Osborne writing this rubbish in the Times in 2006: www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/commen ... 733821.ece
Quote Ireland stands as a shining example of the art of the possible in long-term economic policymaking, and that is why I am in Dublin: to listen and to learn.'"
Quote What has caused this Irish miracle, and how can we in Britain emulate it?'"
Quote In Britain, the Left have us stuck debating a false choice. They suggest you have to choose between lower taxes and public services. Yet in Ireland they have doubled spending on public services in the past decade while reducing taxes and shrinking the State’s share of national income. So not only does Ireland now have lower business and income taxes than the UK, there are also twice as many hospital beds per head of population.'"
So basically George Osborne's plan for the economy was to base it on the Irish model, he liked the idea of doubling public spending whilst reducing taxes. This is a bit like some football manager writing that they should model their business plan on Portsmouth when they won the FA Cup.
When we had the run on Northern Rock it took everybody by surprise but Osborne didn't come up with a credible suggestion, all he did was criticise Alastair Darling for taking action to guarantee deposits without which you would have had it spreading rapidly to other banks and causing chaos. Meanwhile at this time his flagship policy was the cut in inheritance tax which he defended hard throughout the lead up to the election then dropped it straight away as soon as they were in power and said it wasn't a priority. All in all he just gave the impression of being somebody who was out of his depth in the job he had, he was only in his 30s, had no business experience, all he'd done was be a Tory party worker in William Hague's office. All in all he comes over like a guy who doesn't really know what he is doing. |
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Quote ="inside_man"I think what a lot of people don't realise (not necessarily directed at you btw) is that when you look throughout Europe + the US, the UK is nowhere near as bad as some countries, we haven't been remotely close to being bailed out which a few already have and Spain isn't far off being the next.
Ireland is in meltdown at the minute because of the Euro, and the labour government refused to join and it has already paid dividends, IRE is already considering rejoining sterling next year.
The main thing with the new government that has really annoyed me, is not the student fees as I semi-agree with what they are doing (the principle but not the method) but it is the instant scrapping of the schools building scheme. I know of several schools that are desperately in need of revamping and completely new buildings, contracts had been agreed, and 1 in particular was 2 weeks away from the builders moving in after the entire school had been cleared out, just to have it scrapped. Ludicrous.'"
Exactly, the Tories and the Lib Dems keep harping on about how Labour has ruined the country's finances and so on - well you had George Bush in the US who was a free market Republican who wouldn't spend a penny on welfare, and their finances got ruined....Ireland, Spain, Portugal, Greece all in worse mess than the UK, was it Labour's fault for ruining them as well?
The Tories and Lib Dems harp on about "13 years of wasteful public spending" but they both contested Labour in the 2001 and 2005 elections and neither of them fought on a platform of cutting public spending and austerity measures. The Tories fought on anti-immigration, anti-Europe, and spending more on prison building, more police on the streets, more money for defence, more money for cleaner hospitals, and tax cuts as well. Lib Dems fought on free tuition fees, increases in spending on health and education.
There was no talk about overspends and austerity measures until this last election. You had George Osborne writing this rubbish in the Times in 2006: www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/commen ... 733821.ece
Quote Ireland stands as a shining example of the art of the possible in long-term economic policymaking, and that is why I am in Dublin: to listen and to learn.'"
Quote What has caused this Irish miracle, and how can we in Britain emulate it?'"
Quote In Britain, the Left have us stuck debating a false choice. They suggest you have to choose between lower taxes and public services. Yet in Ireland they have doubled spending on public services in the past decade while reducing taxes and shrinking the State’s share of national income. So not only does Ireland now have lower business and income taxes than the UK, there are also twice as many hospital beds per head of population.'"
So basically George Osborne's plan for the economy was to base it on the Irish model, he liked the idea of doubling public spending whilst reducing taxes. This is a bit like some football manager writing that they should model their business plan on Portsmouth when they won the FA Cup.
When we had the run on Northern Rock it took everybody by surprise but Osborne didn't come up with a credible suggestion, all he did was criticise Alastair Darling for taking action to guarantee deposits without which you would have had it spreading rapidly to other banks and causing chaos. Meanwhile at this time his flagship policy was the cut in inheritance tax which he defended hard throughout the lead up to the election then dropped it straight away as soon as they were in power and said it wasn't a priority. All in all he just gave the impression of being somebody who was out of his depth in the job he had, he was only in his 30s, had no business experience, all he'd done was be a Tory party worker in William Hague's office. All in all he comes over like a guy who doesn't really know what he is doing. | |
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| Quote ="Yed"Would lowering taxes to practically nothing and raising VAT not help. Even the 'current' tax dodgers would struggle if the tax was on things we bought rather than earned ?'"
The reason they went for VAT as a tax rise is for the reasons you say, it is hard to avoid and it brings a lot of revenue in. They can't really put it up any more than they have done though. Already with the rise to 20% people will start to 'think twice' about buying consumer goods because everything costs more, which is fair enough. But if they put it to 22.5% or 25% then people would just not be able to afford as much so they would cut their cloth accordingly. Which means if you have a job which depends on selling anything, everybody is buying less, so the firm will have to make cutbacks and start laying people off. You would push the economy back into recession.
Increasing the saving rate and getting people to save rather than spend has many benefits but the fact that nobody is spending means nobody is going to have a job either... |
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They are increasing vat instead of income tax because the way things are going if you have no job or are poorly paid they can't make you pay much income tax.
John Bishop was good last night on the Royal Variety Show when he was going on about the French protesting about the retirment age to 62, he said it wouldn't happen here as most people in Britain haven't had a job by the age of 62 lol
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| Quote ="Yed"Why do people get all shirty about politians doing u-turns ?
Is that not politians actually doing what they are paid to do and representing/listening to the electorate ?
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Quote ="sally cinnamon"
The Tories fought on anti-immigration, anti-Europe, [uand spending more on prison building, more police on the streets, more money for defence, more money for cleaner hospitals, and tax cuts as well. Lib Dems fought on free tuition fees, increases in spending on health and education. [/u '"
u turns or lies Yed ......? |
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| Quote ="the flying biscuit"u turns or lies Yed ......?'"
I can be equally cynical when it comes to politicians but maybe  they actually wanted to do the things they stated and when in with chance to look at the books thought 'oh sh-t, we can't do it'.
You never know. |
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you tube david cameron exposed its brilliant....(its clean its not a mad monday prank)
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I said it on election night and again when the coalition was formed. Lib Dems have gone into governemnt with the torys for a) experience and b) give the labour party long enough to get rid of brown and get a new "election winning" leader in place. Give it 2-3 years and they will rebel over something, vote against the govenment and bring Cameron down...and then Cameron can spend the next 5 years spouting his favoruite punchline .."its the other sides fault"
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| Quote ="mikej"I said it on election night and again when the coalition was formed. Lib Dems have gone into governemnt with the torys for a) experience and b) give the labour party long enough to get rid of brown and get a new "election winning" leader in place. Give it 2-3 years and they will rebel over something, vote against the govenment and bring Cameron down...and then Cameron can spend the next 5 years spouting his favoruite punchline .."its the other sides fault"'"
The Lib Dems went for the coalition to give the appearance that they could run a country. It's just backfired however as one of their major policy's has been instantly changed.
There was an interview with Nick Clegg on the radio the other day, and he was being quizzed about why the sudden turnaround on student fee's, and for every excuse or answer he gave, the interview simply replied "but you knew that before, why have you changed your mind", and it went on for 4 or 5 answers, and Clegg couldn't give a legitimate reason why. |
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| Quote ="inside_man"The Lib Dems went for the coalition to give the appearance that they could run a country. It's just backfired however as one of their major policy's has been instantly changed.
There was an interview with Nick Clegg on the radio the other day, and he was being quizzed about why the sudden turnaround on student fee's, and for every excuse or answer he gave, the interview simply replied "but you knew that before, why have you changed your mind", and it went on for 4 or 5 answers, and Clegg couldn't give a legitimate reason why.'"
The reason I've heard him use frequently is that they have changed their mind because they were not elected to Government.
The voting system in this country meant that no party got a good enough majority to take power automatically. So the Conservatives, who 'won' the election in the logical sense through being voted for a lot more than the other main parties get to use the power the majority of the country wanted them to.
Clegg said that as the Libdems were not voted for in significant numbers, it really has no right to demand the policy's they trumpeted in their campaign as they clearly weren't what the majority of the country wanted.
Labour made an absolute mess of the country. I liken the situation under Labour to driving your car towards a cliff, the driver being Labour, the kids in the back being the population. It all seemed fine enough, the parents were in horrendous debts but the kids didn't notice as they had three PSPs and DSs each, Nike trainers and an Iphone 4 each. All the conservatives have done is stop that car as it was about to fly off the cliff.
The last election is the best possible situation for Labour. They had thoroughly messed it up, but were able to walk away quietly, without the election whitewash they deserved. The Conservative/Libdem coalition then inherits a horrendous situation where the only option is to make cuts. The ignorant public then notice the cuts and the ridiculous way they are blown out of all proportion by the media and votes Labour, still devoid of ideas, back in a landslide victory at the next election. |
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I don't think Cameron has had enough time to be judged to be honest. I'll review his performance when it comes to the next election. I do however think he seems to be doing a good job at stabilising a country that could have ended up in a right mess.
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I don't think Cameron has had enough time to be judged to be honest. I'll review his performance when it comes to the next election. I do however think he seems to be doing a good job at stabilising a country that could have ended up in a right mess.
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| Quote ="Saddened!"I don't think Cameron has had enough time to be judged to be honest. I'll review his performance when it comes to the next election. I do however think he seems to be doing a good job at stabilising a country that could have ended up in a right mess.'"
That funny that, exactly what Blair said when he took over form the tories, things were left in a mess then, do you remember the boom bust years of the tories, if not it's on it's way back.  |
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| Quote ="Wire2000"That funny that, exactly what Blair said when he took over form the tories, things were left in a mess then, do you remember the boom bust years of the tories, if not it's on it's way back.
'"
Exactly, the ironic thing about the last Labour government is the biggest gainers were the middle class professionals who owned their own property or were able to buy property in around 1997-2000, because they saw their houses shoot up in value and made hundreds of thousands of pounds of capital gains. You also saw people who had been to university and graduated in the late 1990s and early 2000s found an unprecedented amount of graduate opportunities and were able to get their careers up and running so that by the time the recession of 2008 hit, they were well established in their careers.
A lot of these people who have done quite well now parrot the Tory phrase that "Labour ruined the country" but if you ask them the question what period of their life did they see the biggest improvements in their financial circumstances then it's 99% certain that whether they admit it or not, the answer will be the decade when Blair was PM. They complain now about having their child benefit and tax credits removed or that VAT is going up and how its not fair, but a lot of people made huge gains in wealth in the Blair years through doing nothing, they just happened to be lucky enough to have owned property at the time it shot up in value. |
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You can't vote the coalition back in.
I would not be at all surprised if the next government is a Lab/Lib coalition.
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Tax? Whats that?
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| Quote ="Big Ask"Tax? Whats that?'"
believe its something the government take off the workers and waste it in many different ways,one being giving the work shy lazy so and so`s a hand out.. |
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| Quote ="Big Ask"Tax? Whats that?'"
Alcohol, what's that?  |
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| Quote ="sir adrian morley"believe its something the government take off the workers and waste it in many different ways,one being giving the work shy lazy so and so`s a hand out..'"
You're spot on. I'm proud to be British but no desire to come back and live and work in the UK and lose a huge proportion of my earnings. Why would I effectively reduce the lifestyle of my kids to supplement a whole load of things I don't agree with.
Its sad to watch the decline of the UK in the worlds pecking order. |
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| Quote ="Yed"Alcohol, what's that?
'"
I think you are confusing Qatar with Saudi |
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| Quote ="worthing wire"You can't vote the coalition back in.
I would not be at all surprised if the next government is a Lab/Lib coalition.'"
Are you implying Clegg would whore himself, again, for a moment on the front benches? |
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The Lib Dems will be destryed at the next election.
Their manifesto was meaningless, I am sure I heard Clegg say that they could ignore theor manifesto pledges because tyhey did not expect to be in governmant and anyway the Tories are the biggest party.
He will lsoe his seat at the next election, Sheffield is full of students.
Ane the Tories, until not too long ago pledged to honour Labours spending plans, and where in their manifesto was cutting Police numbers, reducing child benefit, increasing VAT and the pledge on knife crime?
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| Quote ="getdownmonkeyman"Are you implying Clegg would whore himself, again, for a moment on the front benches?'"
If it comes out as a hung parliament then it's inevitable there will be discussions about forming a coalition. A Labour-Lib Dem coalition would make more sense as the two parties are generally closer in policy.
There are two wings of the Lib Dems, the right wing of the party are pretty much Tories on economic policy, pro free market, anti state, but liberal on social issues. Nick Clegg, David Laws, Danny Alexander are this type of Lib Dem. Then the left of the party are basically social democrats who when Blair was Labour leader, were to the left of Labour on higher taxation, more public spending, opposition to Iraq war etc. These are guys like Simon Hughes and Charles Kennedy. Menzies Campbell and Vince Cable were also more this type of Liberal.
For Clegg himself, this partnership with the Tories is more natural than partnership with Labour but where Clegg has got himself into trouble is that on the ground, most Lib Dem members and their supporters, identify more with the left of the party. The number of economic/social liberals like Clegg in the country are quite small, its just a section of business people and professionals who support the free market but see the Conservatives as stuffy bigots on social issues, it's not a large movement by any means...the Lib Dems rely on growing their vote through students and picking up disaffected former Labour supporters, which is why Clegg led a party whose manifesto was more to the left than he would have liked....that's why he now looks like a big hypocrite. The most awkward member of the coalition is Cable who had to be included because of his high profile but looks to me like a man who is trying to defend in public policies which he doesn't like.
The Lib Dems will get battered terribly at the next election and Labour have most to gain, by default, but I don't think they will win the election with Ed Miliband, I can see him being a caretaker leader who will be replaced in two years time. I would not be surprised if the next PM is Yvette Cooper. |
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| Quote ="Wirral Wire"The Lib Dems will be destryed at the next election.
Their manifesto was meaningless, I am sure I heard Clegg say that they could ignore theor manifesto pledges because tyhey did not expect to be in governmant and anyway the Tories are the biggest party.
He will lsoe his seat at the next election, Sheffield is full of students.
Ane the Tories, until not too long ago pledged to honour Labours spending plans, and where in their manifesto was cutting Police numbers, reducing child benefit, increasing VAT and the pledge on knife crime?'"
Clegg won't lose his seat at the next election, it's just that his constituency won't be Sheffield. |
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Yvette Cooper failed to get the nomination to be Labour candidate for one of the Warrington constituencies in 1997.
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they actually wanted to do the things they stated and when in with chance to look at the books thought 'oh sh-t, we can't do it'.
