Finishing higher than 8th in the Middle 8 would be a good start.

Who are Toronto replacing? If any cities come along with a financial backer and a viable business plan then they should be accepted, and if that means we get a league full of bigger and better teams than Leigh then that's great news for the sport and everyone involved.

You realise that Toronto aren't 'replacing' anyone don't you? They're being added to League 1, to compete with existing clubs.

You've just completely nailed the argument. 20 clubs attracting less than 1000 speccies to games (to use your figures), yet you'd turn one away that could attract thousands, open the sport to a new market, produce players, attract investment? Bizarre logic.

This venture will fall flat on its ars3 within the first six months.

Good thing you support a wholly sustainable club that has never run into instability or financial problems.

I do, but where 'will it end'. Toronto are being given preferential treatment as regards the 'salary cap'. I know they are not REPLACING any team, but different rules because they are from a BIG CITY in Canada. Even Toulouse didn't get that help (I don't think so anyway). We are very different pal, I'm used to visiting Rochdale, Hunslet, Oldham, Whitehaven, & York etc. Admittedly I would rather see one of those clubs get back to the 'big time' rather than a new 'franchise with loads of money' get in SL. Remember 'Cougarmania' when Keighley used to get gates over 6K, obviously you know that will never happen again. This is my final post on this topic, just wonder what other clubs in their league will make of it next season, when it actually happens.....

Errr probably one of our biggest competitor in Rugby union feel the need to have a league including Scottish, Welsh, Irish and Italian teams

American Football has for several years played games at Wembley with the view of eventually having a British team in their league....will American Football be a joke when they do that or is it only when RL tries it?

I think by far the most worrying thing about this development is I find myself agreeing with Headhunter and SmokeyTA. If that can happen, I think anything is possible.

I do love the accusation of an "alright Jack" attitude from SL fans when it is quite clearly some fans of small-town clubs that are basically saying "we don't want you in because you'll take our spot and make it harder for us to get to the top." THAT is an alright Jack attitude!

What will happen to the clubs of smaller towns? They will not be replaced. They will still be in the system. They will just find their level. If a big city club wants to join the league and can be backed by investment (you know, money that the game didn't previously have until these investors came along), let them.

I'm quite surprised by the negativity surrounding this. I'm quite happy we support a sport that is willing to try things like this out. Pioneering. It may not work, but we won't know until we try.

Does anyone know the situation if they get drawn at Home in the Challenge Cup?

So what if it does it will not cost any body owt and at least they have tried

Wakefield seem to go from one disaster to another every six months so what's the difference

Exactly. No wonder some of them are worried. Have a read of the Toronto thread on their board, some flatcappers of the highest order on there. Luckily some of sound mind too who are putting them in their place.

And a league with Australian, New Zealand, South African, Argentine and Japanese teams in it; a league over four continents really puts into perspective how little our expansion into Canada is. As Perez said, teams in North America take travelling for 4/5 hours by plane for granted so it will be no different from that.

How are we worried? All some fans have done is offered their opinion that this venture will not work. "putting in them in ther place" sounds like someone's getting too big for their boots now their club is finally doing something in the league after all the millions poured into it.

I think it's quite clear to see that rugby league must have the highest amount of snobs in its fan base in this country.

Why is wanting the sport to be a playing and commercial success, that reaches beyond a 107 mile stretch of motorway, snobbish?

I'm not saying that is, I'm saying that some of the pro-Canada attitudes are snobbish. And what happens when whoever is financing pulls out ala Crusaders? There'd be a bigger mess on the RFL hand's than ever before - and that's taking into consideration the implosion of Wakefield, Bradford and the like.

But that scenario could happen with any club through either mismanagement or a financial backer pulling out.

Ok my take on this is...firstly i would imagine logistics have already been discussed between TWP and the RFL, the have seen it can be done so they did it.

This from what i can gather is being financed by a rich Canadian in charge of the club.
All air fares, hotels and transport covered by them, so costing the RFL the sum total of sod all.
You tell me any one of you, right this second that if i gave you a bit of notice that you wouldn't take a free ticket off me, all expenses paid to spend 3 or 4 days in Toronto? Easy sell for the players with maximum potential of 2 games a season in Canada at that level.

People arguing it weakens Canada's RL because we'll be taking a side out of the equation? No if anything it gives players in other teams something to strive for and play in a more established league.

Small clubs some with no money and some with insular fans some both, arguing it could stop them from getting in SL? So what, especially Leigh, you had a chance last season and it was obvious you wasn't ready. If they overtake you and take 'your' place in SL so be it. The clubs with no money moaning, can gfts. Sick of clubs with not enough £ having too much of an influence.

To the fans that say it is too far or too much....simple, don't go, listen on the radio or you could be lucky and it be in tv, it is not your right to go to games no matter how much you want to. I missed Widnes last week and will miss Wigan tonight and gutted on both scores, it is what it is. 

To those that say it will fail...it may well do but it is at zero risk to the rfl and all the costs are coming from Canada, so what is your issue?

"But we should invest in Cumbria" why should we, why?
It's just hills and floods and occasional towns spread out over miles, Barrow is a toilet, Workington and Whitehaven not much better all spread out over miles, Penrith stinks (no seriously it does) and has a small following and the biggest place in Cumbria isn't really interested in RL.

Then we have clubs like Oldham, Rochdale and Swinton who should be growing the Manchester game, all dying on their backsides.

Liverpool isn't interested, Lancashire has no professional clubs anymore (no I'm not getting into a debate about sodding old Lancashire)

Newcastle have a passing interest, counties next to the 'heartlands' like Derbyshire, Staffordshire, Lincolnshire even to a large extent 'South Yorkshire' couldn't give a monkeys about RL, we have paid lip service to it in London, Wales and the Midlands.

So why the fk not Canada? We live in a modern age, the pits have closed (not getting into a Tory/Thatcher argument either) times have changed, when the Whippet passes away then buy a labradoodle, put the donkey jacket in the clothes bin, wear baseball cap or a flat cap that isn't tweed, possibly buy a kangol and get with the modern world.

Plus they already have a fan base better than Wakey, Cas, Widnes and Salford.

If they make SL won't hold us back because they can't compete with the big boys and make sure they hold us back.

The race to the bottom has made SL more even, not by dragging it up but by lowering it to the Wakefield standard. We struggle to attract the talent like we used to.
Think of times when we had players like Wally Lewis and Mal Meninga, Iro bros, Gene Miles, Jamie Lyon, even lesser players like Stacey Jones would light SL up now.
No we get dog sha*gers and people taking a mickey in their own mouth, people with bad attitudes NRL clubs won't take on, people taking a turd on a hotel floor or unsavoury guys who bag their team mates wives and GF's

Im sick of the likes of Wakefield telling solvent clubs what they can and can't do because they can't get their own house in order.
The salary cap hasn't even raised with inflation, technically it gets lower each year.
Now i have to watch Wigan and Hudds playing compete homegrown WWE stars bore the cr*p out of me week on week, Wire look shat without their star player, incidentally another that fell foul of the NRL.
Even the champs resort to signing players of the calibre of Galloway and Falloon, from a team that won the treble only being able to recruit THAT pile of poo.

Salfords halfback surplus to requirements in the NRL ripping it up here.
Denny Solomona unheard of in Aus killing it here

All because our standard is pathetic, let's just forget Canada, let's merge ourselves with the Queensland Cup teams and still see us get a spanking week in week out.

Totally agree

Absolutely this.

There is also a prevailing theme that I don't understand. This idea that "we should do help Cumbria", that "we need to develop the heartlands", "we need to work on Wales / Scotland / Midlands / London (delete as appropriate)".

Who is this "we" that people speak of? And why is it down to "we" to address these issues?

Is "we" the RFL? If so, I why is it down to the RFL to support any club, not least those who have had long enough to develop themselves, to structure themselves professionally, to develop and grow their own revenue streams, their commercial revenue and their supporter base?

The RFL owes nothing to any club in the sport. If any supporter of any club is frustrated by the failings that they perceive around their club, direct your ire at the people responsible - not Red Hall.

Nailed it.