But you’re not anti Wakefield???
And how do you know that Trinity aren’t ‘the answer’? If we’d been having this discussion back in 1980 you’d have been saying Wigan were part of the problem and Widnes were one of the teams we should be looking up to. Ten years ago it would have been Bradford. As you say, Toronto might not be the answer but don’t kid yourself that you definitely know what the answer is.

I can't speak for others on here but I personally don't believe that expansion has to be an either/or scenario. Yes, you have to set a limit of clubs in the top division at some point, but this isn't about ditching the loyal and faithful wife for a 21 year old blonde with bigger boobs.

What it is about is raising standards and raising the bar in terms of what clubs need to do to grow the sport, market the sport and themselves, and reach new audiences. What I think many who are against TW are most fearful of is that they set a standard that their club can't reach.

As I said earlier, there are some on here for whom nothing that TW does will ever be enough. If they pull in big crowds, those crowds are "exaggerated" and they've been counting the pixels on their TV screen to prove it. If they engage new, younger audiences, those fans are "only there for a beer festival". And if they attract big sponsors, that won't matter because they "don't bring any away fans".

TW have done everything that could have been asked of them in less than 2 years. For some their concern isn't about the state of RL, it's a fear that TW may set a standard that their club doesn't have the ambition or ability to reach.

That’s fine, couldn’t agree more. Clubs come and go and, if they can’t reach the required standards, on the field or off, they must find the level at which they can function. I just get the feeling that that’s not what some posters on here are advocating.

FWIW I agree with you (to a large degree anyway), I just fear for them if their benefactor pulls out as they have nothing to support them otherwise.

Btw, maybe it was the microphones in use at the game, but when the guy on the tannoy asked the crowd to "make some noise" it did sound like the Toronto faithful had been rudely awakened from their private conversations. I guess it's down to the way fans support their team, but the Canadians do seem very quiet!!

Thats not at all what I said at all and I think you know it.
I'm ok with expansion as long as "we" dont risk everything in the process and that those teams that are invited are a good "fit" with the league and the progressive evolution of the game.
Planting seeds in the desert in highly likely to be successful and it does seem that "our" sport is incapable of learning from some of its past mistakes.
You seem to have a problem with people who dare to question an opposing view to your own and yes, I may be wrong and you may be right that N. America is the promised land.
Let time be the judge of this one and lets just hope that, when this experiment has run its course, RL remains as a pro sport in the UK (and France).

Kent Invicta ? Celtic Crusaders ? Carlisle ?

Yeah, it's really funny, my sides are splitting whilst I'm trying to reply.
Toronto have spent massively compared to the competition that they've had thus far.
However, assuming that they gain promotion, they will be on a level playing field with many SL clubs and not spending substantially more.
We will then see just how good they are.

I love the Wakey criticisms about them not spending, quite ironic when you look at the sides that they have beaten this season, Wigan, Saints, Hull FC...........
FWIW, we should have been increasing the cap,year on year, since SL began and for those still blaming "clubs like Wakefield" for holding everyone else back, how many clubs are using the second marque player 1,2,3 ??
Other clubs just use the smaller clubs as an excuse for their own failings and their inability to compete higher up the table.

My passion maybe, but not the statistics.
The game losing its History, it's heart and Soul and its reason for existing.......remind me why the game exists? Ah, that's it......so players could be recompensed for their time playing. Currently the players are paid only because the TV deal with Sky allows it. Remove or reduce the Sky money and see what happens (have a gander at the Leigh and Featherstone Rovers boards)......as for the games History and Heart and Soul, Leigh averaged 6,521 last year in the regular SL season.......3,538 this year.....where's the 2982 missing fans gone........top flight competition is what they want......not History, Heart & Soul.
Those that hark for the days of winter rugby, local derbies, bus trips 20 minutes up to road to away games......those people are dying in their droves and as our average age of supporter goes up, the number in attendance go down. I care little if Toronto implode or not......they have introduced the game (and beer festivals) to a new audience and good on them. Wakey got 7,020 for the visit of local rivals Castleford, Toronto "declared" 8,000+ for the visit of Featherstone......a town slightly more than a bus trip around the corner. I suspect they are adding 25% to their gates based on corporates given but not using tickets, so they are still averaging 5,250 at games.....they look to have a business plan that none of the failed expansion clubs ever had. Expansion done the PSG/Crusaders/London way involved sticking posts in the ground, announcing KO times and expecting curious locals to come and watch, get hooked and buy season tickets......the disputes I have had with London over their failure in this department are well recorded.......but Toronto look like a different animal. YES.....I still am skeptical, but for a chance to crack a new market with new sponsors and new revenue streams, I'd bury those clubs that treat survival as a victory.....

What exactly have clubs like Wakefield, Halifax, Batley, Keighley, Oldham, Rochdale etc actually done over the past 30 years with regards to the expansion or enhancement of the sport overall? Pray tell me??
TWP and other potential NA clubs open up new markets which bring EXPANSION to the sport; money, exposure, people, connections. Have any of the above clubs been able to support or maintain such factors??

Failed from the outset because their owners did not market or make their clubs a bold awareness to the wider world. They expected pople to simply rock up. Build it and they will come mentality. Often the owners of such clubs (including the Israeli born Marwan Koukash) who may have been successful in their own business portfolios yet have been absolutely clueless of how to run a sports clubs. Time and time again we have seen this over and over in RL, soccer, RU, Cricket....

It's quite strange how RL treats it's smaller clubs, compared with say, football.

When a club like Burnley, with relatively limited resources, gains promotion to the top flight, they are embraced and recognised for their "over achievement" but in our sport, "fans" of other clubs besmirch the audacity of the smaller clubs for daring to breathe.
Non of this existed pre SL, when the only criteria for being in the top flight was finishing in the top 2 places in the league below and some of the bigger clubs licked their lips at the "2 easy points" that they would gain.
Super League created a more acrimonious environment where clubs were "measured" on various criteria, some of it quite laughable, and clubs were instantly set against one another and still, fans of certain clubs, seem to have difficulty in watching the sport,without first using some measuring stick of whether their own club is "better".
Sport should always be about what happens on the field of play and not based on numbers of plastic seats.
Yes, there should be minimum standards but, RL and many of its fans seems to have lost sight of the SPORT that we all used to enjoy.

there is a big difference. association football is the biggest sport in the country and the world, RL is not, they can afford to have a 20 team league with practically unlimited resources and still only have 4-5 clubs as serious contenders the rest are cannon fodder just happy to be there. we cannot do that in RL.