My thoughts after some time to talk to others, read the newspapers, watch the footage and listen to apologies from all concerned at the Wigan club.
1. What happened before the punch on the floor is almost irrelevant apart from to describe the events leading up to the second punch. There was some kind of contact in back-play as Hohaia chased thorough (happens ever game), Hohaia ran into Flower and made contact with his head an Flower reacted with a punch to the head. None of these things are particularly rare in the game.

2. The second punch was a disgusting act. I'm not buying the fact Flower "didn't realise" Hohaia was unconscious. I can tell immediately that a man lying on his back, with his arms splayed at his side and not moving is unconscious. When Flower pulled back his fist to land the second punch, a conscious man would have made some effort to either roll away or put his arms in front of his face in defence. Hohaia did neither of these - it's clear immediately he was unconscious and Flower, knowing he had already landed a forceful punch on his head, would have known this too.

3. Is it a criminal act? It could be.
When players walk out to play a physical contact sport, there is an acceptance that things that would normally be against the law are going to take place, but protection is provided by the game's regulations. RL players go out on the understanding that at times, punches can be thrown. However, I don't think any players would expect to be punched in the head whilst they lie unconscious on the ground. It goes so far beyond the regulations put in place by the game's governing body that police action could be needed to deal with the seriousness of the act.

4. Is the incident an indication of a deliberate attempt by Wigan to seriously injure fellow players?
I think it's a fair question to be raised. There will be no proof that this is the case, as most team-talks and instructions are confidential and not in the public domain. However, the footage of Shaun Wane instructing his players to "be reckless", "cause mayhem" and "knock people out" doesn't reflect well on him as a coach or the club, and it's not unreasonable for people to link this with the fact Flower has then "knocked out" an opposition player (for me the passage of time between that teamtalk and the Grand Final probably doesn't prove a link, but if this is the kind of message often given to Wigan players then Wane does hold some responsibility).

Well its one injury that occurred against Wigan this season.

After seeing that DVD clip it leaves any injury involving your club open to debate now...classic PR for the clubs image

Just what was Lenegan thinking allowing that nonsense to be broadcast? It's almost as if he has no regard for the wigan club's image and reputation at all.

It would be a fair question to ask if it was an unprovoked attack. Then you could argue that Flower's motivation was instructions from the coach. However, the fact that this came after he got hit in the face makes it pretty clear that his motivation was retaliation (albeit a disproportionate and totally inappropriate retaliation).

That's where this argument falls down. It can't be a product of Wane's team talks, or the club culture, or anything else like that, if it happened in response to getting hit. And the fact that this is such an exceptional case also makes it plain that this is not something Wigan, or any other team for that matter, do as a matter of course, as part of some gameplan. When it happens, like it does with any team, it does so in the heat of the moment, usually in response to a perceived transgression from the opposing player. Very few players can be said to have spontaneously attacked another player simply to injure them, and I doubt any at all have done so on instruction from their club.

Quote ="TheElectricGlidingWarrior"Any other players broke their jaws this season, or just that one caused by Wigan?'" I suppose practise will make perfect!! www.wigantoday.net/sport/wigan-w ... -1-6412322

Quote ="TheElectricGlidingWarrior"Any other players broke their jaws this season, or just that one caused by Wigan?'" I suppose practise will make perfect!! www.wigantoday.net/sport/wigan-w ... -1-6412322

You comepletely fail to understand that being told once or twice to knock someones block off as a kid is not even remotely the same as systematically being conditioned to hurt someone in a job that already allows pretty high levels of violence already.
You're not asking people to go from competitively playing conkers in the playground to smashing a lads head against the wall if you lose, you're being giving permission on a very regular basis to go one step further than you already do.
Think you need to do some reading up on human behaviour because you have no idea whatsoever..

I'd probably agree.
However, the Wigan club made a big mistake letting cameras into the dressing room if this is the kind of message Wane gives the players. Putting the footage of that team talk ("cause mayhem/be reckless/knock people out"icon_wink.gif alongside the actions of Ben Flower makes a clear implication that, although he wasn't given the direct instruction to punch Hohaia, that TYPE OF BEHAVIOUR is acceptable and indeed promoted (sorry for the CAPS, can't work out how to bold!).

Does anyone think it was just pure co-incidence it happened to be saints only recognised halfback Hohaia who just happened to be taken out? Flower did go for him first. You wonder whether he may (or maynot) have been under some instruction.

Nothing would suprise me from a team that allegedly has a hit list handed round on what injuries and operations players have had in the last 12 months.

Considering you constantly show us you are a man of the world who was coached at 10 to knock people out i can claim on my own experience that Flower would have known that Hohaia was knocked out.

I have played rugby, soccer, gaelic football and hurling. I was an amateur boxer and have had a few scrapes in my life.

I can tell you 100% that you know when you have given someone a clean punch. You know pretty well when you have hit that sweet spot and someone is going down.

When they are down and you have to bend down on one knee and the opponents hands are splayed wide so that you can hit them again you know they are gone
No matter how quick it is you know they are not fighting back, you know they are not covering up you know they are out.

You know this instantaneously, you know it instinctively, you know it objectively.

He knew he was knocked out but he had so lost himself in his emotion or anger or frustration he did not care and still went for it.

Either way that scenario is very very scary and something the RFL need to deal with

Happens every game, rattle the opposition half back and put him off his game. Works a treat with Danny Brough, been going on since the birth of RL.

I do not condone what Ben Flower did for one second, but I think we all need to stop and think about all the coverage for State of Mind. Flower will not be allowed to forget this for a very long time, what he did was inexcusable. I hope he gets the ban he deserves, but then we have to leave it and let time heal for everyone.

I don,t know if they are still there but Wigan had large pictures of what they call "car crashes" in the corridors at the training ground to encourage your above assumption, these pictures are FACT. Wigan Players are indoctrinated into playing Thugby.

I was not coached at ten to knock people out. When I was ten, coaches (this in union by the way) used phrases like 'knock his block off' when talking about, say, the biggest opposition player who was trampling on people. It's old fashioned and not how you'd coach nowadays, but it wasn't taken literally. Taken literally, 'knock his block off' is worse than 'knock someone out', but even a ten year old knew that it didn't mean to literally knock his head off his shoulders. That's what I meant when I said I'd heard 'worse' in junior rugby. The point is to put Wane's comments into context.

On the other point If you are correct about Flower, then he shouldn't play again, but I still think you're wrong.

I was hoping by now that sports psychologists may have posted something pertinent to the Wane half time team talk as show on Sky TV and the conduct of Flower,and whether or not there is any correlation.

I am curious because I was led to believe that you can overload an elite sports person with information,so brief words is the correct way to go.

I have tried to check sports psychology on the magic screen and I found one about soccer players controlling their own emotions ( and temper )

[url=http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/active/10568730/Mind-games-how-footballers-use-sports-psychology.htmlSAY ICE[/url

and one about putative elite sports people not retaining too much information [url=http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=9b3jAAAAQBAJ&pg=PT213&lpg=PT213&dq=sports+psychology+++psyching+players+up+pre-game&source=bl&ots=WZ1_JkJ-Zj&sig=-QmS5pAFnaxJmCtR_Q8Xnc07CdI&hl=en&sa=X&ei=OC08VNulL8i07QaqpIDoCQ&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=sports%20psychology%20%20%20psyching%20players%20up%20pre-game&f=falseHERE[/url

Anything better out there...?

This was more than just trying to rattle a halfback. He was out, he was gone. But still that wasn't enough for Flower. Chilling.

It is surprising that no media outlet in this country has linked the team talk to the punch. Very surprising.

It has got amazing coverage, as I speak now an article has been put on the Guardian website about how Saints are refusing to rule out legal action against Flower and its the fourth Flower related article in the top ten sports stories. It's not good publicity either as the other articles include one reviewing all the previous incidents that have shocked rugby league including Hopoate and his wandering finger. Not the sort of news we need to remind people of.

Absolutely, a point I put to Giant Daz a few pages back after he suggested no-one should stand beyond Flower in the face of his guilt, that anyone standing by him was "as sick as the perpetrator". I didn't get a reply.

It's an issue of huge consideration. People on here are wailing and gnashing for Flower to have his career ended, to be banged up in jail, to be made an example of, for Wane to be sacked and God knows what else. You'd think given the tragic events surrounding depression and ex-RL players these people would think a moment. All over one, albeit very bad, punch.

Of course some other posters have shown their true colours over the subject:

I saw that, rugby league's top ten moments of ignominy!

Correct. The bloke screwed up massively and is absolutely distraught about it. He will get, and will no doubt accept, a harsh but fair punishment. For some on here, though, no punishment is enough. The rabid attacks show absolutely no human compassion - something they might want to reflect on the next time they make a really big mistake. Most other peoples big mistakes aren't played out over and again in the national media. The guy must be going through an unbelievably hard time. Demand justice for the offence, fine, but have a bit of compassion too, you never know, you might make a big mistake one day.

They have and I posted a link a few pages back. They wondered what Wane may have said before the GF given the video of the other team talk.

If this goes to Court (and I guess we all would hope not?) then the ramifications will be enormous and the coaching staff's role will no doubt be cross-examined under oath. For these reasons it would seem that the RFL and Wigan's owner(s) will need to act very, very strongly (if it is correct that the police / CPS may not follow it through if there is sufficient punishment).

You should read the Guardian article where Tony Smith talks about platers being influenced by watching MMA and raising coaching issues re Shaun Wane.

Potentially this is worse than maybe either of us think

Think Pettybourne broke his jaw when we played Catalan didn't he. Which by the way, was one of the most ill-discipline team performances I've seen in Super League and certainly one of the dirtiest.... by the Catalan team.

I've said it before, I'll say it again. Anyone taking that heat of battle dressing room team talk literally is an idiot. Plenty of idiots around then.

That sort of talk nothing more than part of hyping the players up to dominate their opponents with aggression and physicality. What you and the other idiots fail to mention is Wane's comments after the game, where he puts it in perspective and explains why he said what he did.

And I've heard far, far worse than that in RL (and RU) dressing rooms. It goes on in dressing rooms across the country every week, part of the process to gee your team up. None of it is taken literally.

And again, if this Wigan team, highly drilled in every aspect of their game, are being coached to 'knock players out', why aren't they doing it every week? Can someone please explain?

But that wouldn't fit the wailing and gnashing agenda, which, by the way, has tipped over the point of ridiculousness into the pitiful.

To be fair, Flower and Wane are the clear victims in this.

People calling them thugs and saying and saying they are sent out with instructions to hurt when all that happened is Flower punched an unconscious man in the head whilst he was down and Wane was on video telling his players to knock the opposition and be reckless.

Its almost like there are consequences for their actions. Its crazy. When did we start judging people on the things they say and do? Its political correctness gone mad!

Just watched the ITV News report on the issue with Martin Offiah. They handled it well.