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FORUMS > The Virtual Terrace > Boots and All - Bradford |
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| Quote: The Devil's Advocate "Smokey, your defence of Bradford is all very laudable, however, I’ve yet to see your answer to the problem.
Say club “A” assembles a squad at a cost of £1.4M & the said club finishes twelfth in the league, but as soon as the income streams dry up, when the season ends, the club goes into administration.
Whereas club “B” has a squad costing £1M which finishes thirteenth & is relegated.
Are you of the opinion that club “A” Mk II should receive no points deduction for the following year?
If so, what’s to stop club “A” Mk III, IV, V etc., doing the same thing year after year?
Maybe you believe the owner/s of club “A” (which has gone to the wall) should be penalised financially, wouldn’t there be a slight problem, as the cupboard would be bare?'" It gets better than that.
In Smokey's head an owner can rack up a fortune in debts over a period of time maybe win a cup or 2 and then enter admin, have another wide boy buy them and do the same and have this happen over and over and over again without any punishment.
Smokey's idea sounds good but it requires a time machine..................Maybe he is a massive back to the future fan and hasn't realised it's not real.
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[quote="bUsTiNyAbALLs":9q9d2t35]Do not converse with me you filthy minded deviant.[/quote:9q9d2t35]
[quote="vastman":9q9d2t35]My rage isn't impotent luv, I'm frothing at the mouth actually.[/quote:9q9d2t35]: |
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| Quote: Him "So the sports club exists then? And can be transferred from one company to another.
'"
No. It doesn't. The club doesn't exist outside of the company which owns it. It is the company that owns it and cannot be transferred. The club is the company which owns the share.
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[quote="bUsTiNyAbALLs":9q9d2t35]Do not converse with me you filthy minded deviant.[/quote:9q9d2t35]
[quote="vastman":9q9d2t35]My rage isn't impotent luv, I'm frothing at the mouth actually.[/quote:9q9d2t35]: |
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| Quote: Anakin Skywalker "It gets better than that.
In Smokey's head an owner can rack up a fortune in debts over a period of time maybe win a cup or 2 and then enter admin, have another wide boy buy them and do the same and have this happen over and over and over again without any punishment.
Smokey's idea sounds good but it requires a time machine..................Maybe he is a massive back to the future fan and hasn't realised it's not real.'"
If I buy a club, run up huge debts, win a trophy or two, put it into admin. Someone else then buys it, the club gets 6 points deducted. At what point have I been punished?
If I haven't, where is the deterrent to me putting the club into admin?
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[quote="bUsTiNyAbALLs":9q9d2t35]Do not converse with me you filthy minded deviant.[/quote:9q9d2t35]
[quote="vastman":9q9d2t35]My rage isn't impotent luv, I'm frothing at the mouth actually.[/quote:9q9d2t35]: |
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| Quote: The Devil's Advocate "Smokey, your defence of Bradford is all very laudable, however, I’ve yet to see your answer to the problem.
Say club “A” assembles a squad at a cost of £1.4M & the said club finishes twelfth in the league, but as soon as the income streams dry up, when the season ends, the club goes into administration.
Whereas club “B” has a squad costing £1M which finishes thirteenth & is relegated.
Are you of the opinion that club “A” Mk II should receive no points deduction for the following year?
If so, what’s to stop club “A” Mk III, IV, V etc., doing the same thing year after year?
Maybe you believe the owner/s of club “A” (which has gone to the wall) should be penalised financially, wouldn’t there be a slight problem, as the cupboard would be bare?'" in answer to your question, the realities of administrations top that. Why would someone want to do that? Whilst creditors may lose out,the investor who buys the club, invests in it and puts it in to admin also loses out. Your hypothesis assumes there area queue of people wanting to lose a large amount of money buying. RL clubs and putting them into admin and the only thing stopping them is that the club may get a points penalty after they have left
Why is a 6 point deduction after I have left a punishment or deterrent to me doing that anyway?
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18686.jpg In Springfield, they're eating the dogs, the people that came in. They're eating the cats! They're eating the pets!:18686.jpg |
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| Quote: SmokeyTA "in answer to your question, the realities of administrations top that. Why would someone want to do that? Whilst creditors may lose out,the investor who buys the club, invests in it and puts it in to admin also loses out. Your hypothesis assumes there area queue of people wanting to lose a large amount of money buying. RL clubs and putting them into admin and the only thing stopping them is that the club may get a points penalty after they have left
Why is a 6 point deduction after I have left a punishment or deterrent to me doing that anyway?'"
Well, all I’ve gleaned from that reply is you’re against a point’s deduction for going into administration.
So I presume, as you haven’t come up with a solution, then a club can assemble a squad it can ill afford & go bust with no penalty.
Bradford borrowed a shed load of money from the RFL (on the quiet) they then didn’t pay back a penny piece, hence the lease situation. It should have been obvious to anyone with half a financial brain that a cost cutting exercise was required, not another cash injection.
Next up come’s OK Bulls, knowing full well they were going to receive much less in T.V revenues, once again instead of reducing costs they chose to borrow more.
I appreciate that any new owner is going to take a financial hit if the club goes under, but that’s the owner’s choice, creditors on the other hand expect financial remuneration for their services & not two bob in the pound.
However, the back-drop to all this is, other clubs are trying to compete in the same league, yet in your world that’s “tough titty” – no point penalising anyone.
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[quote="bUsTiNyAbALLs":9q9d2t35]Do not converse with me you filthy minded deviant.[/quote:9q9d2t35]
[quote="vastman":9q9d2t35]My rage isn't impotent luv, I'm frothing at the mouth actually.[/quote:9q9d2t35]: |
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| Quote: The Devil's Advocate "Well, all I’ve gleaned from that reply is you’re against a point’s deduction for going into administration.
So I presume, as you haven’t come up with a solution, then a club can assemble a squad it can ill afford & go bust with no penalty.
Bradford borrowed a shed load of money from the RFL (on the quiet) they then didn’t pay back a penny piece, hence the lease situation. It should have been obvious to anyone with half a financial brain that a cost cutting exercise was required, not another cash injection.
Next up come’s OK Bulls, knowing full well they were going to receive much less in T.V revenues, once again instead of reducing costs they chose to borrow more.
I appreciate that any new owner is going to take a financial hit if the club goes under, but that’s the owner’s choice, creditors on the other hand expect financial remuneration for their services & not two bob in the pound.
However, the back-drop to all this is, other clubs are trying to compete in the same league, yet in your world that’s “tough titty” – no point penalising anyone.'"
None of the thing a you have listed here are deterred by a points deduction.
Had last year been a relegation year, Salford and London would still have been relegated, Bradford would still be in SL. it would still be 'tough titty' and those who went in to admin still would not be punished, The 6 point deduction changed nothing. It achieves none of the things you want.
If I buy a club. Run up huge debts, survive against relegation, then go into admin, if you give a 6point deduction, a million point deduction or a zero point deduction, other clubs have still been relegated and I have still received no punishment.
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18686.jpg In Springfield, they're eating the dogs, the people that came in. They're eating the cats! They're eating the pets!:18686.jpg |
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| Quote: SmokeyTA "None of the thing a you have listed here are deterred by a points deduction.
Had last year been a relegation year, Salford and London would still have been relegated, Bradford would still be in SL. it would still be 'tough titty' and those who went in to admin still would not be punished, The 6 point deduction changed nothing. It achieves none of the things you want.
If I buy a club. Run up huge debts, survive against relegation, then go into admin, if you give a 6point deduction, a million point deduction or a zero point deduction, other clubs have still been relegated and I have still received no punishment.'"
But you’re not coming up with a suitable alternative.
What else can the governing body do? It’s not like they can impose financial penalties, as the company has gone down the pan.
Yet once again, the game gets a few more damaging media inches & countless companies get shafted.
This season is the only year where a point’s deduction may have a damaging effect on a club. Finishing bottom in the Licence Years was an irrelevance & next season a SL club could finish on minus a trillion points at the end of the first part of the season, yet still stay in SL, come the gimmicky play-offs.
A one up, one down would have done the trick.
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2690.jpg :2690.jpg |
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| Maurice Lindsay took all of Wigan's trophies with him when he left the club. Club didn't exist outside of his ownership you see.
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975_1347830146.gif My posts do not reflect the opinion of rlfans.com, my employer, the Prime Minister, Lassie, NRL fans or the privately educated. The opinions posted here are solely intended to influence the intellectually destitute.
Money back guarantee applies.:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_975.gif |
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| As far as I see it, the points deduction is a payment for keeping a clubs status. The new legal entity behind the club inherits the old clubs status within the RFL structures.
The new legal entity can choose to form a club completely independent of the old one, at which point they would be expected to apply to the RFL for membership and will start from it's lowest tier. There will be no points deduction because the new legal entity would not benefit from the inheritance of the old clubs status within the game.
Inheritance of status for a new legal entity should not be a given, because they are not the same entity as previously and should be treated as such. Thus the choice for a new entity is to accept the previous clubs status and accept a points deduction as payment, or they form a new club in the lowest tier and work from there.
Quite straightforward and quite fair IMO.
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973_1515165968.gif Last edited by Ferocious Aardvark on stardate Jun 26, 3013 11:27 am, edited 48,562,867,458,300,023 times in total:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_973.gif |
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| It is absurd how so many people can't understand a pretty simple concept.
To inflict a 6 point sanction on a defunct company would indeed be absurd. It would be utterly ridiculous. Why? Because unless a new owner comes along, there won't be any club playing anywhere. That is why sanctions are applied to the owner.
Now you might WANT there to be a fixed penalty system, but there isn't; the RFL under the present rules takes a number of factors into account.
You might think they should not take anything into account, but you need to get it into your head that they do.
They did in Bradford's case. Once Moore & Co. had walked, after giving the RFL a very public bagging, the RFL issued a statement which made it crystal clear that they had taken into account the proposals by BB2014 in regards to paying creditors, and the HMRC debt, that they were not satisfied with those proposals, and this being the case, it was judged fitting to deduct 6 points.
Again, whilst some might not like it, the corollary of that is very clearly that if the RFL hda been happy with BB2014's plan and proposals for the old club's creditors, then their points decision would have been less than 6. This is the relevant part of their formal statement and with respect it can't be read any other way“Throughout our dealings with them, the club’s directors were unable to provide any evidence of new capital investment into Bradford Bulls and consequently, the RFL Executive had no confidence in the business plan that was presented.
“At no stage was there a firm written commitment from the directors to meet the liabilities would have been left with an unpaid liability of almost £170,000.
“In the last six months two other clubs have had to restructure their businesses, introduce new investment from owners and release players to avoid administration. For Bradford to effectively drop off debt as a result of the administration without a points deduction would have significantly impaired the integrity of the competition.'"
So, the key point was the old company's debts and what the new owners proposed to do about them. To put it another way, shafting all the old creditors and HMRC would have "significantly impaired the integrity of the competition", and a new owner, whilst not legally [iresponsible[/i for those debts, needs to propose a solid business plan as to what they will be paying off, or else face full sanctions.
Interestingly the administrator of OKB stated that BB2014's offer included paying off all (trade) creditors in full. I never saw any mention of HMRC. The RFL were obviously (and rightly) unhappy at the prospect of HMRC being shafted, and seemingly thought there was insufficient hard evidence to back up fine words about paying creditors.
So far as I know, no announcement was ever made of what BBNL's proposals were or are re old debtors/HMRC.
The appeal was not lodged by BBNL. It was lodged by OKB, acting by the hand of its administrator. The new owners applied to RFL for permission to take over that appeal, which I gather is an unprecedented situation, but was granted. I must close by adding that the process and the little we know of the grounds make little sense to me. The sporting sanction of 6 points should never have been confirmed as it was a proposed sanction on BB2014 as owners but they never became owners. So the present position is that the new owners are stuck with a sanction proposed to be applied to the last bidders, reflecting their business/debt plan/proposals/evidence. However different you might like the process to be, you can't argue that as the process currently is, that is an unfair situation, since the proposals which directly led to the full 6 point sanction were not the proposals of the owners receiving the sanction.
Another strange aspect is that nobody has said anything about proposals or business plans, only that the general grounds for appeal are "[iforce majeure[/i". I don't follow that, but the grounds of the appeal were drafted and lodged by/on behalf of the administrator, not by BBNL, so they are presumably stuck with them.
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[quote="bUsTiNyAbALLs":9q9d2t35]Do not converse with me you filthy minded deviant.[/quote:9q9d2t35]
[quote="vastman":9q9d2t35]My rage isn't impotent luv, I'm frothing at the mouth actually.[/quote:9q9d2t35]: |
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| Quote: The Devil's Advocate "But you’re not coming up with a suitable alternative.'" THat isnt a good Argument in favour of a points deduction is it. Just doing something, anything, regardless of it being right, wrong, productive, useful is not a good way to run the game.
Quote: The Devil's Advocate "What else can the governing body do? It’s not like they can impose financial penalties, as the company has gone down the pan.
Yet once again, the game gets a few more damaging media inches & countless companies get shafted.
This season is the only year where a point’s deduction may have a damaging effect on a club. Finishing bottom in the Licence Years was an irrelevance & next season a SL club could finish on minus a trillion points at the end of the first part of the season, yet still stay in SL, come the gimmicky play-offs.
A one up, one down would have done the trick.'"
That’s an argument against relegation and the obvious downfalls of it. Its not really an argument in favour of a points deduction.
The Alternative would be to punish the owners of clubs by banning them from involvement in RL again, putting them on a ‘bad investors’ blacklist. I would be happy to look at owners being personally liable for a £100k fine should they go into admin as part of their agreement to take on the golden share.
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18686.jpg In Springfield, they're eating the dogs, the people that came in. They're eating the cats! They're eating the pets!:18686.jpg |
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| Quote: SmokeyTA "THat isnt a good Argument in favour of a points deduction is it. Just doing something, anything, regardless of it being right, wrong, productive, useful is not a good way to run the game.
That’s an argument against relegation and the obvious downfalls of it. Its not really an argument in favour of a points deduction.
The Alternative would be to punish the owners of clubs by banning them from involvement in RL again, putting them on a ‘bad investors’ blacklist. I would be happy to look at owners being personally liable for a £100k fine should they go into admin as part of their agreement to take on the golden share.'"
So I’ve finally eked it out of you, blacklisted & a fine.
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438_1551258406.jpg "If you start listening to the fans it won't be long before you're sitting with them," - Wayne Bennett.:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_438.jpg |
Moderator
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| I'd be quite happy for Khan, Hood and Co to be blacklisted and fined.
They should be banned from entering a RL stadium and hung by their goolies from the nearest lamppost - can I have that too?
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11062.gif A casual stroll throught the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.:11062.gif |
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| Quote: SmokeyTA "The Alternative would be to punish the owners of clubs by banning them from involvement in RL again, putting them on a ‘bad investors’ blacklist. I would be happy to look at owners being personally liable for a £100k fine should they go into admin as part of their agreement to take on the golden share.'"
Quite. I don't know if Bradford should get any points back or not, although obviously I'd like all six back. Having said that, a deposit by the owners with the RFL of £100k or something of that ilk would make more sense to me than applying a points deduction. I can see plenty of issues with the implementation though, so who knows how that would work...
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18686.jpg In Springfield, they're eating the dogs, the people that came in. They're eating the cats! They're eating the pets!:18686.jpg |
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| Quote: ridlerbull "Quite. I don't know if Bradford should get any points back or not, although obviously I'd like all six back. Having said that, a deposit by the owners with the RFL of £100k or something of that ilk would make more sense to me than applying a points deduction. I can see plenty of issues with the implementation though, so who knows how that would work...'"
They’ll probably get an Amigo Loan, with Smokey acting as Guarantor!
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