Bit reluctant to tackle the rest of it are we? How are those straws you're clutching? Making your hand sore?

Funnily enough, almost all Saints fans I've spoken with (and many on here) are being perfectly sensible and proportional about it, just as every Wigan fan I've spoken with is appalled by what Flower did and would expect (in fact, demand) a long ban. Lance and the St. Helens club also appear entirely rational.

All in contrast to the foaming at the mouth loons who've convinced themselves that one man's moment of madness has nearly destroyed Rugby League and deserves nothing less than a lifetime ban and the resignation of the coach.

Tackling the rest of it would simply turn into a listing of Wigan player's 'sins' versus all the other incidents perpetrated by other clubs' players. So arguing about individual incidents doesn't help determine whether or not the premise is correct - i.e. than Wigan are specifically coached to go out and injure. Hence, some statistics would be far more useful - and if they prove your point, then so be it, you may indeed have a point.

Don't worry, he wouldnt dream of defending it, its just not as bad as it looks (slo-mo and tv magic made it look worse) he didnt really mean to do it (how could he know he was unconscious it all happened so fast) and it happens all the time (he surely isnt the first to punch a prone player, the fact he was unconscious is irrelevant because Flower didnt have time to check that before he cocked his arm back and swung unmolested at Hohaia's face)

But no-one is trying to defend it yeah, but Hohaia gave him a forearm smash worse than Lamb on Hanley just before it. No-one wants to mitigate it but you know props are going to swing after that and if Hohaia happens to be unconscious at them time, well thats not Flowers fault (even though he knocked him out)he didnt even know before he hit him again.

Nor would your statement. The proposition is one of intent not of success.

The only possible proof of intent would be, i don't know, a coach or manager saying that they wanted you to hurt people, perhaps an instruction to knock them out or be reckless in their play?

If only we had video evidence showing such behaviour?

The only 'defence' I have ever mentioned is that I don't believe he knew the guy was unconscious. That is all. You've already said you think it makes no difference (recklessness being no defence). That's fine. I happen to think it makes a *bit* of a difference. Not in the rules, or in the law (although it might), but just in common morality - i.e. if he told me in the pub that "yes, I knew he was out cold but smacked him anyway" I'd be so disgusted that I'd want him to never play again, at the very least. Whereas if he said "I don't know what came over me, but I honestly didn't know he was out cold", I'd be saying something along the lines of "Jeez, you were out of control, you need to sort yourself out, take your punishment, apologize, and make sure it never happens again".

None of the minor incidents in the build up are particularly relevant (I suppose perhaps technically they're relevant in terms of explanation, but certainly not in terms of justification), and I've never claimed otherwise.

If the intent has been there for several seasons (as most Wigan haters claim), you'd expect some statistical evidence that it was having an effect. If it's not having an effect, then it doesn't even matter, it's just a team making fools of themselves by intended to injure and failing.

I don't know if obtaining statistical evidence would be possible, but it wouldn't suprise if the stats did paint a picture, there was 3 ligament injuries alone in last years grand final involving wigan. The more you think about it the more pop into your head, that have occured, against wigan.

Like I said, you may be correct, and I mean it. But watching them week in week out I don't feel like I see opposition players hobbling off any more than Wigan players. Could be wrong, I hope some 'anorak' puts some injury stats together - the data's probably there somewhere, if someone can be bothered to research.

You're probably right, the only time players get injured is when they're playing against Wigan, and I can't remember a non-Wigan player committing any foul play. As for Saints, they definitely don't do things like putting pressure on joints and their disciplinary record is certainly not littered with it...

I have fully intended to sleep with Cameron Diaz for a couple of years now. There is no statistical evidence of it happening.

The proposition wasnt that Wigan DO injure more people, simply that they intended to.

You know that thing where people on the internet think they have a point to make?

He punched a man unconscious on the floor. What he knew about the degree of damage he'd already done is irrelevant, as it would be if he was stood in front of a judge after punching an unconscious prone man on the floor. Having put him on the floor he removed any notion of self defence when he continued to attack him. Twice.

Surprised to see anything but utter condemnation for his actions this deep into the thread.

I'd have no problem at all with it if he goes to jail - a less hyperbolic statement than saying it's okay because you've heard of ten year olds also being told to knock the opposition out.

Broken jaw for Kirk Dixon off a Mickey Mac tackle this season.

No one said any of that. You're just exagerating the point to try and make light of it.

"I have no evidence that Wigan intend to injure more players, but, but, they just do, alright!"

There's a video of wane telling his players to be reckless and knock players out.

Ah, so the truth is players from every club get injured by players from every other club?

The simple fact is that the incident was shocking to both the seasoned RL fan and man in the street. The fact that it has attracted so much comment from outside the game and that this thread is so long already speak to the fact it was exceptional. I therefore think the punishment will be exceptional. I think a season's ban is about the best the lad can reasonably hope for. Not a nice state of affairs but that's how I see it.

I can only imagine.

Any other players broke their jaws this season, or just that one caused by Wigan?

well at least you swung pretty wildly as the point went sailing past.

It's not the worst I've ever seen but pretty close, certainly the most public and that's where the problem for the sport is in terms of negative publicity.
Anyway, this isn't me defending Flower, this is reasoned thoughts about how/why this has come about. Flower is guilty as sin without doubt, extremely shocking and deserves a very long stint in the stands.
All that said..
I watched that phone camera footage and the look on some of the Wigan players faces said it all (smith in particular stood out), they are under duress, they are being conditioned by Wane to play in a certain style and there's a certain amount of fear in them.
That fear (of losing, of the coach, of being different to your peers/not fitting in, being seen to be the one not following the leader, losing their place/job even) alongside with the mental conditioning that is clearly being passed down to the players has culminated in what happened on Saturday.

Yes it was Flower who threw the punches/started the incident, he was out of control, he completely lost the plot whereas even those in spontaneous anger can often see where the line is drawn. Weak & strong minded people can be conditioned, in such a way that they are doing things without even thinking, even if those things are absolutely and categorically 'wrong'.

Wane & indeed others I'm sure are effectively conditioning young men to harm other human beings. yes in rugby a large element of that is legal, it's part of the sport and we accept that, we accept that there are times in a physical sport with lots of agression people will & do get hurt, that tempers will fray and 'biff' happens. In a gladitorial encounter it is unavoidable. I would never ever want to lose the 'natural' agression that our sport has, but that needs to be tempered with respect for your opponent whom is just another human being, a person not an inanimate object.

BUT there is a line and that was crossed massively (& has being several times of recent) the actions of Flower I believe has being initiated through conditioning to act in an overtly agressive manner, being told it is OK to hurt someone, to be reckless which is hugely wrong. It's not only is damaging to those on the end of it, but it is also damaging to those dishing out the blows (mental health POV, losing job, personal derision from all corners etc). From that it is damaging to the sport as we've seen and not just from a media POV.

The RFL MUST take a much much deeper look at this, they MUST take responsibility and take action NOW! Wane is the one responsible for what happened SAT IMO, he needs to be taken to task and managers/coaches AT ALL LEVELS need to be given firm guidelines with regard to how our sport is being played because one day..we will have a death..we will be looking at one punch manslaughter and somebody will be going to prison and a loved one being told their son is dead because the RFL did fack all to change things..

As this develops more in the media, I think the RFL will have to go beyond the Grade F and its 8 match ban to repair the image of the sport and keep the prosecution service of its backs. It wouldn't surprise me if the ban is something similar to Newton on Long.
It does,t really matter which club the player comes from the incident is something we,ve never seen happen before in professional super league, you can't show any leniency whatsoever the incident cannot be repeated again otherwise one day it might be possible we are looking at a manslaughter event in sport. For me a minimum of 12 matches and a further 12 month suspended ban if further similar occurrence.

Maybe I'm older than you, but do you never remember as a kid being told to (for example) 'knock his block off"? (e.g. How to respond if a bully hit you). It's not what is usually said nowadays, but it often was back then. My point about it is that no kid, *literally* took such advice to mean 'hit that person so hard that his head literally leaves his body'. Taking the words literally, 'knock his block off' is a pretty harsh instruction! In fact it's technically worse than 'knock people out' if you take it ABSOLUTELY LITERALLY, with no context whatsoever. In the same way, none of the Wigan players took Wane's comments to mean "go and punch someone unconcious". As every single pundit on radio 5 to tonight agreed, that sort of comment goes on in many many dressing rooms. Not all, but many. If you, quite rightly, argue that 'knock his block off' in the 'olden days' doesn't actually mean exactly what it lierally says, then maybe you could consider the possiblity that Wane wasn't actually instructing his players to punch people unconcious.