That defeat today was NOTHING to do with any indavidual failures it is a sign of the indavidual weakness of RL in the Northern Hemisphere.

That England team today had never played together before.

If this was a club game everyone would have been saying Robinson and O'Loughlin need time to get use dto plkaying together. yet in their FIRST game together everyone is criticising them.

The centres and the wings are all being criticised they have NEVER played together before.

WTF do you all expect.
Many of those players have never played in a game of that intensity before.

Australia play 7 meaningful International games a year ( inlc the 3 SOO games).

England play France before getting hammered by Aus and NZ.

The RL needs to address this by bringing sopme quality competitive games into the season. To hone players skills and to get them playing at a high intensity. that is what weeds out indavidual mistakes.

We have 3 years to get it right or we lose the opportunity of having the World cup.

can someone in England please watch some NRL videos and teach our backline how to deal with players attacking wide! Geez time after time for 3 years now we've looked liked rabbits in the headlights whenever Lockyer/Marshall ran wide and passed to the centre after the 2nd row ran an inside line. Its not that hard to get a sliding defence!

For the WC:
1. Tomkins - nope doesn't look a good FB at this level. Out of positions for kicks and never chimed into the line as a second attacking stand off. Widdop may be the answer IF he gets a NRL starting gig
2. Goulding - Nope. Defensive liability and little to help out the forwards
3. Shenton- yep. Decent frame, decent pace, just needs to read defence better
4. We need another centre
5. Briscoe - maybe, bad mistake today but not had a bad series in a poor backline
6. Presumably Eastwood will fill this spot?
7. Robinson - Get him to a decent club and give him some more chances
8. Graham - yep I like him alot
9. Roby - yep, Needs to dominate more but plenty of skill
10. Crabtree - can play a Petro battering ram role well
11. Burgess - yep he is only going to get better (maybe Westwood and O'Loughlin to 13)
12. Ellis - yep for now but need to be finding a replacement for 2013
13. Westwood - I like the look of this kid, needs to get in the gym but has all the skills and ticker

problem lies in depth. If we lose the starting player then we are stuffed.

I can see how playing in the NRL has worked wonders for Ellis and Burgess. They look so invincible now, never making a mistake and tearing the opposition apart. NOT!!!!

Westwood is world class by playing in SL same for Graham. Only difference with playing in the NRL, is that those players wold receive the recognistion they deserver from fans who faun over everything Australian, while ignoring quality that is present in the UK.

no they would be exposed to high intensity games week in and week out and modern coaching with high quality back room staff. People talk about Ellis, watch him and how he plays for Wests. Running wide, back on angles to feed off Marshall etc. What the heck was Englands game plan for him? I watched wondering why they were using him as a 3rd prop to batter it up the middle!

Cameron Smith only made 2 runs for 18 metres in the game today, is he a poor hooker?

Bravo

Tomkins - Poor, and definitely capable of better but they did a good job on him.
Goulding - There's nothing in his game to worry the best Test teams, decent finisher but that's about it. We need more physicality from the back three on our kick returns and early tackles and for that reason I would always pick Hall over him.
Cudjoe - Barely played enough at centre in SL to warrant being picked in that position and it showed. A talented player though and we need to be patient with him.
Atkins - He's a far better player than he's shown on this tour, but some of the mistakes he made should have been coached out of him years ago. Definitely more of a winger than centre for me, and one of the very few backs that would provide the physicality I mentioned earlier.
Briscoe - Similar to Goulding in many respects, but from what little I've seen of him he looks to have more to his game than Goulding.
O'Loughlin - To say I barely noticed him is probably the biggest complement I can give him. Not at fault for the way the team performed in any way, but a ridiculous decision by McNamara to play him at 6.
Robinson - Massive effort from him, and he played reasonably well. I wanted him to attack the line more as he got their big blokes on the back foot a lot when he went at them.
Burgess - If he didn't make so many errors I would say he was one of our best. Some impressive carries and defensive work but put us under a lot of unnecessary pressure.
Roby - Another competent display, also made an error but he's comfortable at this level and the England team should be built around him.
Graham - Worked hard, he can play much longer though and I would rather him have got more time at the expense of the two props on the bench who did nothing.
Ellis - Solid and got through his work efficiently.
Tomkins - Another who's capable of more, not that he did anything wrong but he can carry the ball better than he did. One for the longer-term.
Westwood - Really impressive at the start of the game, and non-stop effort whenever he was on the field. A bit of a silly penalty to give away early doors but he can feel hard done by considering all the lying-on the referee allowed later in the game.
Fielden - Poor, was worth another try after his good club form this season but surely that's the last we'll see of him at this level.
Crabtree - disappointing from the big man I thought, we need more from him if he's to keep his place in future.
Harrison - Looked really slow, I didn't think he was up to it at this level anyway and today did nothing to change my mind.
Lunt - Need another look at him really, throwing him into a dead game in poor conditions does him no favours. A few nice touches though.

Ellis running wide on good angles - he never did that for Wakefield or Leeds did he?

I cannot see a single facet of their game that the 'modern coaching with high quality back room staff' have added to Burgess or Ellis

The long term health of the English national team is dependent in the strength of the game in the UK not sending three or four players to Australia each generation

You still dont get it do you. The only time a hooker should be scooting from Dummy half is when his forwards have got the roll on and there has been a quick play the ball, leaving the defensive line at sixes and sevens. This never happened today.

If you actually read what I put instead of shooting your troll mouth off, you'd notice what I'd put. I.e that it wasn't the lack of running, more the lack of creativity and direction. Bar the admitedly excellent pass to Burgess he did nothing bar drop it onto the next forward. Far too predictable at this level.

Again the whole team underperformed from what we all know they can produce, the problem isnt with the players picked, the team on the park COULD have beaten Aus, but needed the right preparation, build up and most importantly coaching.

Poor strategising and man magement seem to be the hallmark of MacNamara at Bradford and now England

Lack of understanding between key players meaning passes go to ground for whatever reason, or one defender moves up as the other waits, leaving gaps = we MUST play more than one or two internationals a season.

Just to point out, but the try people are blaming Cudjoe for is actually down to O'Loughlin, Cudjoe and his winger did perfectly, moving up quickly to meet the attack and stop the move dead.

O'Loughlin stood and watched as the Aussie line attacked and it was the gap he left they scored through.

The players on the park COULD NOT beat Australia in a game that matters. We have only ever beaten them in dead rubbers or games where they are confident of prevailing overall.

We cannot defend properly. That is not something a coach can fix, it's in the players themselves. If you look at what Sheens said about Ellis, that they had to spend months rewiring his entire defensive effort because he was so naive. Now Ellis is supposed to be one of our best players. It would take Sheens a decade to sort out Ryan Atkins' defensive problems.

Why does everyone keep saying we under performed? That players are a lot better than what they showed today?
Are they really any better? Or are the Aussies & NZ actually that much better than us. We can't keep saying players underperformed year in year and and justify archaic coaching techniques based on 1 game every 4 years we pull out of the bag. Michael Maguire went to Wigan this year and brought a new approach to coaching and took the same players and made them champions. This is what we need to do throughout Rugby League. A new modern approach to the game has to be brought in. The Mcnamaras, Mcdermotts and Lowes of this game need to be replaced. The brass at HQ need to be shipped out and the game needs to be looked at properly by people who want to bring the game forward.

Putting all our best players into the NRL is not the answer though, it would just weaken Superleague and create a void in the competion to be be filled in 2nd rate overseas players and young english players not ready for the big time.
The answer is to make Superleague more intense week in week out, we did have a spell of it around 2005/2006, then the RFL messed around with how the game should be played and the result is what we have today.

As someone who watches Briscoe week in week out I have been a little disappointed tbh. The knock on aside he hasn't really done anything wrong but I agree he needs to come and do some more work. When he did carry the ball yesterday he posed problems for their pack, almost breaking clear through from a kick return and he was unlucky that the ref called his pass to Cudjoe forward. It seems to me though that rather than it being an issue with his workrate it's more to do with confidence, he avarages over 10 carries a game for Hull and I feel he often comes looking for a run and allows himself to be shoved out of the way. He needs to be less passive and get in there more. I also think that stat of 3 carries is rubbish though. Let's not forget that he's been the youngest player on the field for both games, give him time and he will be a top class player.

As for Goulding I think he also faired well and I would rather pick him than Hall tbh. However he's just a solid winger and I can't imagine him ever coming with some of the plays that Briscoe has at club level. Briscoe is raw but I believe he's the best finisher we've got in this country.

I really am gobsmacked at the general consensus that Atkins is undeniably a good player in SL. I can't watch it, so I rely and trust such a widespread opinion. At Test level, he is absolutely rubbish. I can only reason that he bottles it big time. Shenton looks 10 times the player Atkins is, I actually rate Shenton as a Test player based on this and last season's Four Nations.

I thought it was a well executed plan to send Thaiday at Atkins from the opening whistle. If Atkins hadn't bottled it before the game, that definitely would've sealed it.

Something I did have a bit of a laugh at was when Gallen had the ball and ran at Atkins. A couple of English players got to Gallen half a seocnd before impact, and Atkins just about side-stepped out of the way to avoid a front-on tackle, and waved his arm out instead. Gallen then grabbed his shirt and Atkins started trying to punch his grip off with an angry face, before suddenly realising that Gallen was on his way to the try-line. By then, another two English players had arrived, but lordy, I honestly can't remember seeing a more visibly scared player, ever.

He was in front of the ball. Major mistake and an invite to run right behind him, which was what was done.

Then keep an eye on Leroyd Lars (15) on Robinson's try at the start of the second half. Does the same. Over-ran, left a gap, thanks mate. Try.

TLL is used to having Dugan save his mistackles. I hold him completely blameless, it's Archer's fault.

But if O'Loughlin had moved up, there wouldnt have been a gap. Simple.

And if Cudjoe and his winger had stayed put, then the try would still have been scored and everyone would have been saying the line should have moved up.

I did read it and replied, but being the poor troll you are,you decided to ignore it. I ask you again, if he only has one player in motion to aim for, what should he do?

Move up with the defensive line rather than standing and watching.

Indeed.

Another consequence of chopping and changing your team both in terms of selection and position - it doesn't allow time for players to develop an understanding either in attack or defence.

Only Warrington fans appear to rate Atkins, he's a defensive liability in SL as well. Though he does offer more in attack, given he's playing against poorer defences.

We were missing 6 or 7 players that would have been (or should have been in Pryce's case) first choice selections that would have improved this side. If that had been the case 10 years ago there'd have been a much larger gap in the score line than one covered by a few contentious decisions.