OK maybe just stick to the crowd you believe it to be then rather than making the example look better in this particular argument.

Your still hiding from the questions that I asked regarding poor ticket uptake for the double header and the effect on attendances at RL events, where the expansion clubs compete.
I've fully understood the money argument that you have put forward and 10/10 for throwing in the Catalan attendance at Wembley to counter my previous comments and thank you also for trying to point out how the Catalan attendances for their games in the UK "are close to the average", although you utterly failed to mention that this was largely due to promotions by many clubs to try and show a "reasonable" attendance.
However, with regards away fans at games, it's not just about pound notes, or total attendance.
Without reasonable numbers of away fans, the matches become stale and lacking in atmosphere and I know this doesn't matter on the balance sheet but, in the long term this will perpetuate the decline in numbers wishing to attend.
Of course, you still get to see the game and admire the skills on display but, match days should be about more than just numbers on the balance sheet.
It's no coincidence that the great derby games attract the most interest within the game and when the competing sides are both on form, we all enjoy the game, whether shown on TV or, whether we attend in person.
There is a "massive" drive towards the corporate side of things, with added value tickets/ packages but, although these contribute really well on the balance sheet, you still need the passionate "regular" fans to help bring the games to life.
If not, we end up with a sanitised sport, purely for the benefit of the TV companies and the sport itself becomes lost.

How many neutrals attend a RL fixture & why would they suddenly support an expansion team over a well known team ? Is it just because YOU WANT THEM TO ?

Ave u evor bin 2 Skool ?

So you've based your calculations on incomplete figures, no doubt incomplete because you wanted/needed/desired to massage them !
Which year have you taken your incomplete figures from ?

Is this argument with a Wakey fan "unwinnable" because you want it to be a 'who can shout loudest & longest' game ?

You sunshine are like a third nipple, a bit gross & nobody wants one !

No I haven't......I have repeatedly answered it but as the answer wasn't the one you wanted, you repeat the question.......I said earlier.



4,000 home fans at Wakefield meaning 350 or so visitors.......rattling around a decrepit stadium....and you want to talk about atmosphere? Oh the Irony.....
Modern PROFESSIONAL sport is about MONEY. The major sports make most of their money from TV and as such, spectators become secondary......be they home or away fans......if RL wants to stay trapped with 6 teams fro either side of the pennines and sod the rest then fine, but don't be shocked when sky don't bother next time and we end up with a pittance of a TV deal.....because Wakefield v Castleford isn't going to interest anyone other than those who already know about the game.........the current capacity at BV is gven as 9,300....was there a bus strike on the day of this years derby......because there were 2,000+ unsold tickets for the "local derby" that you claim is the lifeblood of the sport.

Don't wrap your fear of expansion in some sort of crusade about the impact of Toulouse displacing widnes at Magic weekend......that's the RFL's problem, not Wakefields.....you just fear that your club will be jettisoned in favour of another expansionist franchise.....and I believe you have every right to be afraid

You don't need 10,000+ supporters for an "atmosphere". The Shay was rocking last weekend for the TO game, with less than 2000 in the ground and virtually no TO fans (I didn't see any at all). Add in a few hundred away supporters and then you've got a real "event".

You focus on the money, and I'm more interested in the supporter who turns up week in week out (as will be the case for Leigh on Sunday). Between us we maybe should get it right??!!

2018.....and they're incomplete because Wigan hadn't hosted Catalan util now and Wakey haven't annunced their gate v Catalan (not that I can find anyway)


Nope. It is based purely on mathematics......the SL kitty gives Wakefield £1,800,000.......1 game where Catalan bring no fans costs Wakefield £10,000 at most and the figure bandied about by SL chairmen a few years back was a £4 million turn over to run a club at no loss.....£10,000 shouldn't be a issue to any top flight club.


Bless. When you rattle the cage of a Northern Monkey it throws sh$7 at you......and you my son, have just proven that!

The trouble with northerners is that they are so used to mediocrity being so second nature to them, that any outsiders who can see the mediocrity and make a statement are shot down and ridiculed. If some are sooo happy with crowds of 2000 then please, never seek Super League. Be content where you are down there. This is one of the biggest blind spots RL in northern England has! Other parts of the UK don't!! So frustrating.

I’ve been reading this debate with interest.

There’s no doubt that if you replace Catalan with either Wigan or Hull then the semi final attendance would be larger. Frankly though Leeds v Warrington should be packing the stadium on their own.

The question we really need to ask is why do we need to have a double header in the first place? The answer for me is that rugby league is going stale and is under funded. We are, in reality a M62 corridor sport plus Catalan which has the beginning of a foothold elsewhere that is yet to be exploited.

Reading through threads like this (an I’m no exception to this) those who argue against expansion are often supporters of clubs perceived to be at risk from a Toronto or Tolouse coming into SL and those in favour often a supporter of a ‘bigger’ side.

For me, for this sport to progress we need new blood, we need a fresh influx of players from new areas and we need the potential money that new markets can introduce to the sport. The key is we exploit those markets which hopefully the new CEO of SL will be able to do.

In truth the development of players and introducing new supporters will take time and we have to allow for this. I say this with genuine regret and empathy for their supporters but if we end up loosing a club with 100+ years of tradition to try and progress the sport then is is a sacrifice worth making as something needs to be done.

Long term, if we can increase revenue there’s no reason we can’t aim to have a thriving 20 team SL, going back to the original point, if that was the case it wouldn’t matter which teams are in the semifinals, we would then have enough interest to fill the stadium.

Finally, a balanced viewpoint, rather than the "blind folded, fingers crossed brigade".

So what is it that you actually want to see from the sport?

It we take the general view that the sport is struggling to compete in this marketplace (given that we seem to be losing a greater proportion of top talent to overseas competitions, that we struggle to attract quality overseas talent (at least, ones that aren't banned from other comps), that participation is falling, that crowds are falling and the average age of our audience is going up), then a key challenge to addressing those issues is getting more finance into the game.

Now without turning the sport into a "sanitised corporate sport" that you seem to disaprove off, that would leave the sport needing to generate more finance from its supporter base. If that is the case, do you believe that the supporter base can contribute more? I would suggest that there is enough evidence out there to suggest that it can't (or won't) - we struggle to sell out key events, and the supporter base often isn't interested in events unless the tickets are sold at rock-bottom prices.

Or is the issue simply that you don't want the sport to address those issues, or that you don't believe the sport is facing those challenges? Is it simply a case that you don't want the sport to stray "out of its comfort zone", to remain something of a Northern oddity, simply because some clubs will be less equipped to meet the new standards than others?

Over the years I have been on RL fans there have been numerous threads about what the clubs and fans should be doing to market the sport - putting on events, fan engagement, community engagement, ancillary attractions, quality merchandise, etc. Toronto are doing all of these things, and making it work, yet for some on here that's still not enough. It just seems to me that people would much rather see the sport fail simply to see Toronto fail, rather than encouraging anything that drives this sport forward.

Nobody is saying that we want empty stadia - that isn't appealing to anyone and again, I believe you're seeing this as an either/or scenario. This isn't about forgetting the supporter base to chase the coporate dollar. It's about developing the fan base to make it and the sport more attractive to the commercial world.

And just a point about atmospheres, some of the best atmosphere's I've seen watching Leeds have been during the WCC events - not many Melbourne, Canterbury or Manly supporters in the crowd from what I recall of those nights.

What do I want as a fan of RL ?

Fairly simple answer, To be able to watch two evenly matched sides compete in a game of RL at a decent standard.
There is no secret that I am a Trinity fan and proud of it and for the record, although the "facilities" at some grounds were poor, the viewing of the game back in the day, when most fans had the opportunity to find their preferred viewpoint on the terraces AND be able to move freely around the grounds (both home and away) was significantly better than being forced to sit in a plastic seat, with little leg room and be constantly "hassled" by the constant stream of drinkers and toilet goers (usually the drinkers).
Of course the facilities at the newer grounds are far better than the old with, refreshments, toilets etc much improved but, much has been lost from "the good old days".
A decent view of the game and some chat with other supporters also adds to the matchday experience.

Of course, Rugby League has to compete with other sports to "entice" players into the sport and reward them for their efforts and therein lies the problem.

Our main "competition" for athletes who want to play league is perceived to come from Union, a sport that is far more wealthy than RL and probably always will be.
Union is played in good numbers across most of the UK and due to the history of the game, will remain dominant over our game. Before Union came clean and went professional, we were able to attract some great players into our code but, this pathway, although not officially closed, is no longer viable on anything other than an occasional "token" convert, Gareth Thomas being the last high profile signing.

Therefore, we are left paddling our own canoe, trying to develop our own, which ultimately is restricting "organic" growth and despite some efforts to "spread the gospel", we remain a marginalised sport, played mainly along the M62 corridor.

The expansion into into France, with PSG which was partially to raise the profile of the sport, was initially a spectacular flop (depspite the 10,000 attendance for their opening game) however, their replacement with Catalan, who you could say are from the "Heartlands in Catalonia" has certainly worked up to a point and with Toulouse now challenging for a spot in the top flight, this will help to strengthen RL in France and hopefully, in Europe and we should embrace this.

We then move along to N. America.

Encouraged by Nigel Wood Toronto have put together a squad of largely overseas players and spent their way to the top of League 1 and then to the top of The Championship and will more than likely replace Widnes in SL, unless of course their is a further restructure of the competition or, a breakaway of some sort.

There are several issues with the N. American club.
Firstly, there is little doubt that they have added some "X Factor" to both League 1 and The Championship and brought some publicity to the game. However, whilst they may have some local players in their squad, this remains a RL club built on sand and running at a substantial monetary loss since their inception and this should be ringing alarm bells everywhere.
Their consortium seem happy to bank roll them but, seriously, for how long ?
Equally, there isnt a hope in hell of them producing more than an odd one or two SL players for the foreseeable future.
So whilst some see this as the "Great RL Dream" (and cracking the N. American market would be one hell of a feather in Mr Wood's cap, a couple of tough seasons, especially if they were in a position to be relegated would end very badly.
It's a HUGE gamble and as we've seen with Koucash and more recently Beaumont, wealthy people are generally happy when they are getting the results that they want and why should Toronto be any different.
I've posted many times about including both Toulouse and Toronto in the top flight but, also that this should be done in an expanded SL (14 clubs) as it would be criminal to allow say 2 current SL sides fold to test Mr Woods dream.
The game is short on cash, no doubt but Toronto will likely be a drain on limited resources, rather than a contributor but, so many dreamers are happy to close their eyes and just hope.