Hang on you've spent all season going to great lengths to dispel Toronto getting anywhere near 7k now to fit in with your argument they get 7k ? which is it ?

At this year's Summer Bash there were about 50 Toronto fans (maybe 60) in a central lower section & when TW scored the cameras zoomed in so close as to give the impression they were there in their masses !
Pan out a little & the truth is known !

There also may have been a couple of dozen in Executive boxes, maybe a percentage were ex Pats who knows, be interesting to know how many travelled from Canada !

Don't get me wrong it's not just TW, take London or Sheffield for example, equally appalling in absence at any away game, even at home London are a bad joke ! Salford & Widnes are both garbage in numbers away.

Substitute any of those mentioned with a Hull K.R *when they were Championship more than once or a Bradford or to a lesser degree Fax & suddenly things are a whole lot rosier !

As I have repeatedly said, I am suspicious of everything Toronto "claim", especially the 7k gates, but the reality is that even if they are getting only 5k....or 4k.....they are still doing it from a standing start and getting more than clubs like Wakefield.
The debate isn't about the size of Toronto's crowds....but the relevance of away fans when trying to argue against them. There seems to be a belief that more games between local rivals is the answer to RL's woes......it really isn't. What we need is to test the water with Toronto and whilst it's not at our expense, let them crack on, but if (as I suspect) they fail, then no worries.....we tried and it didn't work and it didn't cost us anything.....if a club folds either inside or outside SL it is a sad day, but the game is bigger than any club.

As it says in my signature....there are many reasons to not want expansion, but away fans isn't one of them and that is the topic of this thread.

OK maybe just stick to the crowd you believe it to be then rather than making the example look better in this particular argument.

Your still hiding from the questions that I asked regarding poor ticket uptake for the double header and the effect on attendances at RL events, where the expansion clubs compete.
I've fully understood the money argument that you have put forward and 10/10 for throwing in the Catalan attendance at Wembley to counter my previous comments and thank you also for trying to point out how the Catalan attendances for their games in the UK "are close to the average", although you utterly failed to mention that this was largely due to promotions by many clubs to try and show a "reasonable" attendance.
However, with regards away fans at games, it's not just about pound notes, or total attendance.
Without reasonable numbers of away fans, the matches become stale and lacking in atmosphere and I know this doesn't matter on the balance sheet but, in the long term this will perpetuate the decline in numbers wishing to attend.
Of course, you still get to see the game and admire the skills on display but, match days should be about more than just numbers on the balance sheet.
It's no coincidence that the great derby games attract the most interest within the game and when the competing sides are both on form, we all enjoy the game, whether shown on TV or, whether we attend in person.
There is a "massive" drive towards the corporate side of things, with added value tickets/ packages but, although these contribute really well on the balance sheet, you still need the passionate "regular" fans to help bring the games to life.
If not, we end up with a sanitised sport, purely for the benefit of the TV companies and the sport itself becomes lost.

How many neutrals attend a RL fixture & why would they suddenly support an expansion team over a well known team ? Is it just because YOU WANT THEM TO ?

Ave u evor bin 2 Skool ?

So you've based your calculations on incomplete figures, no doubt incomplete because you wanted/needed/desired to massage them !
Which year have you taken your incomplete figures from ?

Is this argument with a Wakey fan "unwinnable" because you want it to be a 'who can shout loudest & longest' game ?

You sunshine are like a third nipple, a bit gross & nobody wants one !

No I haven't......I have repeatedly answered it but as the answer wasn't the one you wanted, you repeat the question.......I said earlier.



4,000 home fans at Wakefield meaning 350 or so visitors.......rattling around a decrepit stadium....and you want to talk about atmosphere? Oh the Irony.....
Modern PROFESSIONAL sport is about MONEY. The major sports make most of their money from TV and as such, spectators become secondary......be they home or away fans......if RL wants to stay trapped with 6 teams fro either side of the pennines and sod the rest then fine, but don't be shocked when sky don't bother next time and we end up with a pittance of a TV deal.....because Wakefield v Castleford isn't going to interest anyone other than those who already know about the game.........the current capacity at BV is gven as 9,300....was there a bus strike on the day of this years derby......because there were 2,000+ unsold tickets for the "local derby" that you claim is the lifeblood of the sport.

Don't wrap your fear of expansion in some sort of crusade about the impact of Toulouse displacing widnes at Magic weekend......that's the RFL's problem, not Wakefields.....you just fear that your club will be jettisoned in favour of another expansionist franchise.....and I believe you have every right to be afraid

You don't need 10,000+ supporters for an "atmosphere". The Shay was rocking last weekend for the TO game, with less than 2000 in the ground and virtually no TO fans (I didn't see any at all). Add in a few hundred away supporters and then you've got a real "event".

You focus on the money, and I'm more interested in the supporter who turns up week in week out (as will be the case for Leigh on Sunday). Between us we maybe should get it right??!!

2018.....and they're incomplete because Wigan hadn't hosted Catalan util now and Wakey haven't annunced their gate v Catalan (not that I can find anyway)


Nope. It is based purely on mathematics......the SL kitty gives Wakefield £1,800,000.......1 game where Catalan bring no fans costs Wakefield £10,000 at most and the figure bandied about by SL chairmen a few years back was a £4 million turn over to run a club at no loss.....£10,000 shouldn't be a issue to any top flight club.


Bless. When you rattle the cage of a Northern Monkey it throws sh$7 at you......and you my son, have just proven that!

The trouble with northerners is that they are so used to mediocrity being so second nature to them, that any outsiders who can see the mediocrity and make a statement are shot down and ridiculed. If some are sooo happy with crowds of 2000 then please, never seek Super League. Be content where you are down there. This is one of the biggest blind spots RL in northern England has! Other parts of the UK don't!! So frustrating.

I’ve been reading this debate with interest.

There’s no doubt that if you replace Catalan with either Wigan or Hull then the semi final attendance would be larger. Frankly though Leeds v Warrington should be packing the stadium on their own.

The question we really need to ask is why do we need to have a double header in the first place? The answer for me is that rugby league is going stale and is under funded. We are, in reality a M62 corridor sport plus Catalan which has the beginning of a foothold elsewhere that is yet to be exploited.

Reading through threads like this (an I’m no exception to this) those who argue against expansion are often supporters of clubs perceived to be at risk from a Toronto or Tolouse coming into SL and those in favour often a supporter of a ‘bigger’ side.

For me, for this sport to progress we need new blood, we need a fresh influx of players from new areas and we need the potential money that new markets can introduce to the sport. The key is we exploit those markets which hopefully the new CEO of SL will be able to do.

In truth the development of players and introducing new supporters will take time and we have to allow for this. I say this with genuine regret and empathy for their supporters but if we end up loosing a club with 100+ years of tradition to try and progress the sport then is is a sacrifice worth making as something needs to be done.

Long term, if we can increase revenue there’s no reason we can’t aim to have a thriving 20 team SL, going back to the original point, if that was the case it wouldn’t matter which teams are in the semifinals, we would then have enough interest to fill the stadium.

Finally, a balanced viewpoint, rather than the "blind folded, fingers crossed brigade".