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| Quote ="wiganermike"Any promoted club could avoid the middle 8s by finishing 8th or above, not an easy task but they could do it. It is the inability thus far of newly promoted sides to finish above 9th that leaves them contesting the qualifiers.
Regarding Toronto and the post split fixtures IIRC they played all of their home games, followed by all of their away games in the League 1 8s last season so I would envision them doing the same again. That would give teams going to Toronto at least 3 weeks to sort out logistics, time off work (if part time) etc.'"
It would take a miracle to gain promotion and then finish 8th (or above).
Most, if not all, promoted sides, only have a nucleolus of players capable of the step up to SL an even fewer of "top 8" quality and with established clubs being able to sort their squads out before the MPG, the promoted side starts "too far behind the 8 ball" and IF they stay in SL at the first attempt, it would be a brave owner that was so sure of making the top 8, that they were confident enough to properly strengthen their squad.
Although KR have some very good players in their first team squad, there just doesnt look to be enough depth to get them anywhere near 8th and they will be back in a battle to survive and right now, you wouldnt back against them being in the MPG as Huddersfield and Catalan both look to have improvement in them and if Widnes can get a few players back, even they may be strong enough to avoid the MPG.
The one unknown here is Toronto, who MAY be happy to spend big (assuming that they aren't running out of cash ??).
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| Quote ="JEAN CAPDOUZE"Toronto will sort out their ground and fan attendances before the end of the season.
pp Toronto from being promoted to Super League if they can beat the weakest SL club in the middle 8s.
=#FF0000It is really only Toronto and Toulouse who have a realistic chance of being promoted. London looked a possibility a few weeks ago, but less so now. Leigh are all hot and cold and will not have a chance of promotion because even if they make the Middle 8s they will not beat any of the four SL teams in the Middle 8s, nor will they beat Toronto or Toulouse in that contest.'"
Really? In them $h!t holes.
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| Quote ="wiganermike)
Regarding Toronto and the post split fixtures IIRC they played all of their home games, followed by all of their away games in the League 1 8s last season so I would envision them doing the same again. That would give teams going to Toronto at least 3 weeks to sort out logistics, time off work (if part time) etc.'"
With regards Toronto last year, it was the other way round. They played there 3 away games 1st, then the 4 home ones.
With regards promoted clubs not staying up. Recruitment is hard when you don't know which division you're going to be playing in till September. By then the better players have joined other clubs, and your left in a stick or twist situation of either relying on the players who got you out, or players who aren't what you wanted/needed in the first place. But have experience.
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| Quote ="luke ShipleyRed"With regards Toronto last year, it was the other way round. They played there 3 away games 1st, then the 4 home ones.
With regards promoted clubs not staying up. Recruitment is hard when you don't know which division you're going to be playing in till September. By then the better players have joined other clubs, and your left in a stick or twist situation of either relying on the players who got you out, or players who aren't what you wanted/needed in the first place. But have experience.'"
The biggest problem for me is a club will have put together a squad of around 28 players to get themselves out of the championship,the problem then is those players will be on 2 or 3 year contracts and the club has no chance of changing those players.
Those players "should they get the club to the SL"will probably be on large pay rises,the salary cap then come into play should you wish to add to the squad.
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| Quote ="luke ShipleyRed"With regards Toronto last year, it was the other way round. They played there 3 away games 1st, then the 4 home ones.
With regards promoted clubs not staying up. Recruitment is hard when you don't know which division you're going to be playing in till September. By then the better players have joined other clubs, and your left in a stick or twist situation of either relying on the players who got you out, or players who aren't what you wanted/needed in the first place. But have experience.'"
You are correct, I did know that and meant to write that but for some reason I wrote it the wrong way about.
With the system in place any team gaining promotion has to be better than at least one SL team to finish higher or win the MPG. Both Leigh and Hull KR were better than 2 incumbent SL teams when winning promotion so aren't as behind the 8-ball as those clubs that won a Championship GF to go up (as they weren't necessarily better than any SL incumbent). Recruitment of players of the required standard is always going to be tough as players won't risk stepping down into a largely part time Championship. The statement I originally responded to said that promoted clubs were condemned to the middle 8s by the system. I acknowledge it is not easy but there is a way to avoid the qualifiers, the system doesn't condemn them to the bottom 4. Realistically the aim of a promoted club will be to finish in the top 3 of the qualifiers or as last resort win the MPG. It has ever been thus with relegation with a team needing to finish 1 place above the drop zone.
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| Quote ="luke ShipleyRed"With regards Toronto last year, it was the other way round. They played there 3 away games 1st, then the 4 home ones.'"
Sorry, but IMHO Toronto should play Home and Away alternate weeks when it comes to the qualifiers. The Only logistics can be sorted NOW by their sponsor, reserving seats now....it would be totally unfair on the rest of the competition if the wolfpack were permitted to play in blocks, especially as their opponents in Toronto would all be fresh of the plane.....but no doubt their imaginary 7k average and their imaginary TV deal and their imaginary "raising awareness" and their imaginary global sponsors flocking to SL" will see a competition dying o it's knees throw another "hail mary" to get them into SL......
....If Argyle and the sponsor wont fork out for this, then truly the emperors news clothes will have been revealed.
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| Quote ="wiganermike"You are correct, I did know that and meant to write that but for some reason I wrote it the wrong way about.
With the system in place any team gaining promotion has to be better than at least one SL team to finish higher or win the MPG. Both Leigh and Hull KR were better than 2 incumbent SL teams when winning promotion so aren't as behind the 8-ball as those clubs that won a Championship GF to go up (as they weren't necessarily better than any SL incumbent). Recruitment of players of the required standard is always going to be tough as players won't risk stepping down into a largely part time Championship. The statement I originally responded to said that promoted clubs were condemned to the middle 8s by the system. I acknowledge it is not easy but there is a way to avoid the qualifiers, the system doesn't condemn them to the bottom 4. Realistically the aim of a promoted club will be to finish in the top 3 of the qualifiers or as last resort win the MPG. It has ever been thus with relegation with a team needing to finish 1 place above the drop zone.'"
I agree with you there. With a combination of bad decisions in games and by the officials plus injuries being the reason were down in the middle 8's. The first year up is always about staying up anyway you can. Then you look to improve year on year like Wakefield (who were in the 1st mpg) have done for example. It like taking baby steps, stay up, get better players and keep improving.
This system (which I like other than the mpg game),is okay. . Leigh proved that promotion from the championship is achievable, Rovers need to prove that once up you can stay there.should we achieve this, then it is an inspiration to other clubs. And they know they can also be that team that goes and stays up.Though I would have the top 4 in the middle 8'school go to sl.
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| Quote ="Call Me God"Sorry, but IMHO [uToronto should play Home and Away alternate weeks when it comes to the qualifiers.[/u The Only logistics can be sorted NOW by their sponsor, reserving seats now....it would be totally unfair on the rest of the competition if the wolfpack were permitted to play in blocks, especially as their opponents in Toronto would all be fresh of the plane.....but no doubt their imaginary 7k average and their imaginary TV deal and their imaginary "raising awareness" and their imaginary global sponsors flocking to SL" will see a competition dying o it's knees throw another "hail mary" to get them into SL......
....If Argyle and the sponsor wont fork out for this, then truly the emperors news clothes will have been revealed.'"
Although im in favour of Toronto i tend to agree with the bit ive underlined,im not really sure 7 other clubs should be disadvantaged for the sake of one club,just doesnt sit well with me.
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| Quote ="j.c"Although im in favour of Toronto i tend to agree with the bit ive underlined,im not really sure 7 other clubs should be disadvantaged for the sake of one club,just doesnt sit well with me.'"
Surely we are entitled to take account of the weather in Toronto. You just can't play rugby league there outdoors in February or March. Even April is iffy. Please cut the Canadian boys a bit of slack.
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| Quote ="JEAN CAPDOUZE"Surely we are entitled to take account of the weather in Toronto. You just can't play rugby league there outdoors in February or March. Even April is iffy. Please cut the Canadian boys a bit of slack.'"
Think they're on about the M8s here young man - surely it can't be problem that time of year as well, or would it be too hot for them then 
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| Quote ="JEAN CAPDOUZE"Surely we are entitled to take account of the weather in Toronto. You just can't play rugby league there outdoors in February or March. Even April is iffy. Please cut the Canadian boys a bit of slack.'"
The Qualifiers......clue is the other 7 teams bit and the fact that it was UNDERLINED.............are played in August and September.
Secondly, the "Canadian boys" don't actually have any Canadians......they are Leigh rejects with a Liberal smattering of ANZACS.
There is no reason other than fiscal that Toronto aren't able to play Home and away alternate weeks in the Qualifiers. As for the start of the season, maybe they should apply to join the NRL then instead of getting preferential treatment.....every team should be made play Home and Away alternate weeks.....if they can't play at home, then they should give up the their home advantage for those rounds, but the scenario this season is farcical with 10 teams all getting off the plane to face a fresh and acclimatised Toronto......Argyle needs to be told to show us the money or just forget it, because as it stands next year they'll bring nothing more to SL than Crusaders, PSG or London ever did...... 
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| Quote ="wiganermike"You are correct, I did know that and meant to write that but for some reason I wrote it the wrong way about.
With the system in place any team gaining promotion has to be better than at least one SL team to finish higher or win the MPG. Both Leigh and Hull KR were better than 2 incumbent SL teams when winning promotion so aren't as behind the 8-ball as those clubs that won a Championship GF to go up (as they weren't necessarily better than any SL incumbent). Recruitment of players of the required standard is always going to be tough as players won't risk stepping down into a largely part time Championship. The statement I originally responded to said that promoted clubs were condemned to the middle 8s by the system. I acknowledge it is not easy but there is a way to avoid the qualifiers, the system doesn't condemn them to the bottom 4. Realistically the aim of a promoted club will be to finish in the top 3 of the qualifiers or as last resort win the MPG. It has ever been thus with relegation with a team needing to finish 1 place above the drop zone.'"
The theory of what you are saying is correct.
However, there is a world of difference in competing with the bottom 4 in SL in a short sharp burst and competing with the whle of SL week in, week out and if/when those 50+ point reverses start to come in, even the "good" players become less than average.
To make it into the top 8, not ony would any promoted side need 6-8 good new players, they also have to gel and in regards to the overseas players, which Toronto and Toulouse will have plenty, those new "overseas" players have to avoid the dreaded home sickness, which seems to worsen just as soon as their new club get a few thrashings.
As I said, just about impossible to make the top 8.
Therefore, the best that a promoted side can hope for is to scrape through year 1, with a thinnish squad, pray for good luck with injuries and then try to improve their squad during the following season.
This is a major, major flaw with the current system.
However, should Toronto (and Toulouse) manage to get well into the mix and one or both actually gain promotion, there would be a new structure on the cards very quickly indeed.
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| Quote ="wrencat1873"The theory of what you are saying is correct.
However, there is a world of difference in competing with the bottom 4 in SL in a short sharp burst and competing with the whle of SL week in, week out and if/when those 50+ point reverses start to come in, even the "good" players become less than average.
To make it into the top 8, not ony would any promoted side need 6-8 good new players, they also have to gel and in regards to the overseas players, which Toronto and Toulouse will have plenty, those new "overseas" players have to avoid the dreaded home sickness, which seems to worsen just as soon as their new club get a few thrashings.
As I said, just about impossible to make the top 8.
Therefore, the best that a promoted side can hope for is to scrape through year 1, with a thinnish squad, pray for good luck with injuries and then try to improve their squad during the following season.
This is a major, major flaw with the current system.
However, should Toronto (and Toulouse) manage to get well into the mix and one or both actually gain promotion, there would be a new structure on the cards very quickly indeed.'"
None of that is a flaw with the system unless by system you mean having P&R (which if we didn't have then we wouldn't have promoted sides to struggle to stay up). As I posted before it was always the case that a promoted side would be recruiting after all the top tier clubs had sewn up theirs as they knew they were in the top tier while until sealing it at season's end the promoted club(s) didn't. When we had 1 relegation spot the aim was second bottom, when we had two relegated it was 3rd from bottom, with three it was 4th bottom. The aim was always to do just enough to ensure staying up (the odd exception saw a team compete much better and finish a bit higher). The only difference now is that the equivalent to finishing 11th out of 12 in the top tier is to finish 3rd in the qualifiers (or failing that to win the MPG).
Getting thrashed and regularly beaten will hit confidence but using a club in the bottom four as an example it won't be a mauling at the hands of St Helens that will decide if Huddersfield stay up. It will be the games in the qualifiers against Championship teams and 3 other teams that have getting beaten all year too. At least with the qualifiers it will be games against teams of similar ability that ultimately decide the fate of the contenders rather than getting a shellacking by St Helens et al. I'm guessing that you don't like the split season format and want it changed, however the struggle for any promoted club to avoid going back down has nothing to do with the current system for deciding relegation, changing it wouldn't change that.
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| Realistically something is going to have to give, the level of player in the top 4 or 5 clubs in the Championship is on par with the bottom 4 of SL.
Most of those players are earning more playing in the Championship than in SL which is part of the problem.
SL either needs to go to 2 leagues of 10 or extend to 16 teams.
SL has never been as boring as it is now and in some respects the Championship produces much more excitement.
Something needs to be done now.
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| Quote ="Binosh"Realistically something is going to have to give, the level of player in the top 4 or 5 clubs in the Championship is on par with the bottom 4 of SL.
Most of those players are earning more playing in the Championship than in SL which is part of the problem.
SL either needs to go to 2 leagues of 10 or extend to 16 teams.
SL has never been as boring as it is now and in some respects the Championship produces much more excitement.
Something needs to be done now.'"
Depends why you think SL is boring as to what to do about it.
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| Quote ="Wellsy13"Depends why you think SL is boring as to what to do about it.'"
In my opinion it's boring as there is far to much one man stuff. Sides are doing anything to get penalties which spoils the flow, speed of the game. It's all about size and power rather than skill. And refs and the rules are poor with no consistency in a game let alone over the season.
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| Quote ="wiganermike"None of that is a flaw with the system unless by system you mean having P&R (which if we didn't have then we wouldn't have promoted sides to struggle to stay up). As I posted before it was always the case that a promoted side would be recruiting after all the top tier clubs had sewn up theirs as they knew they were in the top tier while until sealing it at season's end the promoted club(s) didn't. When we had 1 relegation spot the aim was second bottom, when we had two relegated it was 3rd from bottom, with three it was 4th bottom. The aim was always to do just enough to ensure staying up (the odd exception saw a team compete much better and finish a bit higher). The only difference now is that the equivalent to finishing 11th out of 12 in the top tier is to finish 3rd in the qualifiers (or failing that to win the MPG).
Getting thrashed and regularly beaten will hit confidence but using a club in the bottom four as an example it won't be a mauling at the hands of St Helens that will decide if Huddersfield stay up. It will be the games in the qualifiers against Championship teams and 3 other teams that have getting beaten all year too. At least with the qualifiers it will be games against teams of similar ability that ultimately decide the fate of the contenders rather than getting a shellacking by St Helens et al. I'm guessing that you don't like the split season format and want it changed, however the struggle for any promoted club to avoid going back down has nothing to do with the current system for deciding relegation, changing it wouldn't change that.'"
Of course it's a flaw with the system.
Under any kind of "standard" promotion /relegation, any club would only need to avoid the wooden spoon to be in a position to start and build for the following system.
Also, the better players, unless being substantially over paid, want to play in SL and not want to run the risk of having their contract made void when their club is relegated and this, not only affects any promoted side but, it also hampers the recruitment for any sides that may be under threat of the qualifiers, which allows the top 4/5 sides to attract the better talent and on lower paid contracts.
The system is flawed BUT, it has created a vibrant high risk competition which, for many neutrals and armchair fans, is far more interesting than what is taking place at the top of the pile.
On your second point, it's all about taking confidence into the middle 8's.
IF the SL sides, albeit in the bottom 4 are playing ok and bring in a couple of "stars" in time for the middle 8's, they should be ok and there is always the all or nothing MPG to save them at the last hurdle, again, fundamentally wrong to have so much on 1 fabricated game every season but, it does make compulsive viewing.
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| Quote ="wrencat1873"Of course it's a flaw with the system.
Under any kind of "standard" promotion /relegation, any club would only need to avoid the wooden spoon to be in a position to start and build for the following system.
Also, the better players, unless being substantially over paid, want to play in SL and not want to run the risk of having their contract made void when their club is relegated and this, not only affects any promoted side but, it also hampers the recruitment for any sides that may be under threat of the qualifiers, which allows the top 4/5 sides to attract the better talent and on lower paid contracts.
The system is flawed BUT, it has created a vibrant high risk competition which, for many neutrals and armchair fans, is far more interesting than what is taking place at the top of the pile.
On your second point, it's all about taking confidence into the middle 8's.
IF the SL sides, albeit in the bottom 4 are playing ok and bring in a couple of "stars" in time for the middle 8's, they should be ok and there is always the all or nothing MPG to save them at the last hurdle, again, fundamentally wrong to have so much on 1 fabricated game every season but, it does make compulsive viewing.'"
Under a standard 1 up 1 down P&R system finishing 11th out of 12 would be enough, I have stated that. Under the system we have the position in the 12 pre-split is largely irrelevant if you are 9th or below as points are then reset, the season isn't finished. Teams 9, 10, 11 and 12 are then joined by the top 4 Championship clubs the de facto teams 13, 14, 15 and 16. At the end of the qualifiers teams 1, 2 and 3 (9,10 and 11) are safe/promoted so the top 11 take a place in SL just as with traditional P&R. then the team ranked 4th (12th overall) gets another bite of the cherry by having to beat 5th (13th overall) to stay up. So a promoted club can finish 12th of 12 after playing everyone twice plus Magic and not be relegated. Under standard P&R they would now be gone but they now can still save themselves with their post-split games and after that they can finish 12th or 13th and still get another chance in the MPG rather than just being down. If a SL team whether newly promoted or not cannot do enough to stay up then they don't deserve to. That is their failing not that of the system, just as it would be if a team that wasn't 12th pre-split ends up going down (as has happened) as they would not have played well enough when it mattered most.
I do agree with you that the MPG should be binned but as it more than any other is a made for tv concept I doubt it will go unless we ditched P&R altogether.
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| Quote ="wiganermike"Under a standard 1 up 1 down P&R system finishing 11th out of 12 would be enough, I have stated that. Under the system we have the position in the 12 pre-split is largely irrelevant if you are 9th or below as points are then reset, the season isn't finished. Teams 9, 10, 11 and 12 are then joined by the top 4 Championship clubs the de facto teams 13, 14, 15 and 16. At the end of the qualifiers teams 1, 2 and 3 (9,10 and 11) are safe/promoted so the top 11 take a place in SL just as with traditional P&R. then the team ranked 4th (12th overall) gets another bite of the cherry by having to beat 5th (13th overall) to stay up. So a promoted club can finish 12th of 12 after playing everyone twice plus Magic and not be relegated. Under standard P&R they would now be gone but they now can still save themselves with their post-split games and after that they can finish 12th or 13th and still get another chance in the MPG rather than just being down. If a SL team whether newly promoted or not cannot do enough to stay up then they don't deserve to. That is their failing not that of the system, just as it would be if a team that wasn't 12th pre-split ends up going down (as has happened) as they would not have played well enough when it mattered most.
I do agree with you that the MPG should be binned but as it more than any other is a made for tv concept I doubt it will go unless we ditched P&R altogether.'"
Apart from stating the bleeding obvious, this still means that any promoted club is back in the middle 8 shake up and while the top 8 carry on cherry picking the best OOC players, ALL of the clubs in the middle 8 have to either gamble like hell or wait a couple of months longer to finalise their squads for the following season, it's not the same as 1 up, 1 down at all.
Back in the day, with a quarter of the season left, everyone would know which club was likely to be relegated (or maybe it was down to a couple), which, in terms of available time to sort out their squad, put most clubs on a level playing field.
If you were looking for a club to play for (assuming that you couldnt play for you beloved Wigan), would you pick a club that you were certain would be in SL or aim low and go for a club that could be relegated,which would possibly void your contract. It's a no brainer.
Of course all of the cards are stacked in favour of the incumbent SL clubs but, until they are CERTAIN of their SL status, they cant prepare fully for the following season, which puts the clubs in the MPG even further behind the rest.
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| Quote ="JEAN CAPDOUZE"Surely we are entitled to take account of the weather in Toronto. You just can't play rugby league there outdoors in February or March. Even April is iffy. Please cut the Canadian boys a bit of slack.'"
So why have a Canadian team if, in your humble opinion is too cold to play in their country when the rugby season is running in the host country?
How many more goalposts do you want moving to accomodate Toronto.
Join the league by all means, but at least operate within the guidelines like all the other clubs do.
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| Quote ="RoyBoy29"So why have a Canadian team if, in your humble opinion is too cold to play in their country when the rugby season is running in the host country?
How many more goalposts do you want moving to accomodate Toronto.
Join the league by all means, but at least operate within the guidelines like all the other clubs do.'"
#I think that they were INVITED to join the league, without which there would be no "North American Experiment" and anyone with half an ounce of local knowledge regarding the climate would realise that they (Toronto) couldnt play their games in Toronto during the first part of the season.
You need to take issue with "the fat controller". regarding them being invited to join the party.
On the plus side, it means that WE can visit in the warm weather rather than freezing our whatsits off.
It's a cracking ciity and well worth a visit.
You may be a bit like Crocodile Dundee, lost in a large city 
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| Been there, done that
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| Quote ="RoyBoy29"Been there, done that'"
Most English and French fans have not been to Toronto. Give them a chance to enjoy that city, especially in the spring and summer.
Why should your fortunate experience of having been to Toronto be even relevant to causing the RFL to limit the life experience opportunities available to 99% of northern hemisphere rugby league fans?
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| Quote ="JEAN CAPDOUZE"Most English and French fans have not been to Toronto. =#FF0000Give them a chance to enjoy that city, especially in the spring and summer.
Why should your fortunate experience of having been to Toronto be even relevant to causing the RFL =#FF0000to limit the life experience opportunities available to 99% of northern hemisphere rugby league fans?'"
A very valid point, about opportunities for RL fans to enjoy the experience of a 'jolly' in Toronto. Indeed, I have no doubt that most English and French fans have not been to Beijing and, given the current make up of the TW team, we may as well have started a club there!
However, on your final point, I wonder how many of the 99% of northern hemisphere RL fans, would be able to afford the expense of a 'jolly' to Toronto?
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| Quote ="wiganermike"None of that is a flaw with the system unless by system you mean having P&R (which if we didn't have then we wouldn't have promoted sides to struggle to stay up). As I posted before it was always the case that a promoted side would be recruiting after all the top tier clubs had sewn up theirs as they knew they were in the top tier while until sealing it at season's end the promoted club(s) didn't. When we had 1 relegation spot the aim was second bottom, when we had two relegated it was 3rd from bottom, with three it was 4th bottom. The aim was always to do just enough to ensure staying up (the odd exception saw a team compete much better and finish a bit higher). The only difference now is that the equivalent to finishing 11th out of 12 in the top tier is to finish 3rd in the qualifiers (or failing that to win the MPG).
Getting thrashed and regularly beaten will hit confidence but using a club in the bottom four as an example it won't be a mauling at the hands of St Helens that will decide if Huddersfield stay up. It will be the games in the qualifiers against Championship teams and 3 other teams that have getting beaten all year too. At least with the qualifiers it will be games against teams of similar ability that ultimately decide the fate of the contenders rather than getting a shellacking by St Helens et al. I'm guessing that you don't like the split season format and want it changed, however the struggle for any promoted club to avoid going back down has nothing to do with the current system for deciding relegation, changing it wouldn't change that.'"
I didn't think SL was boring last season when Cas were doing their stuff (bear in mind I write as a Fev fan so I'm hardly likely to be biased towards Cas.) Now Saints seem to have taken up the baton. But from what I've seen most sides are still playing five drives and a kick. I watched the Aviva highlights on C5 last night. They appear to be playing more football than we are at the moment. We used to call Union kick and clap, our game seems to be degenerating into that at the moment. You see more football in the Championship.
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