I’d imagine Leeds’ sales haven’t gone as strongly as possible due to their form. If we were playing well and winning and up in the top 4 ticket sales would improve.

Rubbish!!!

Not at all, but after years of being asked '"what do London bring to the game"? or "did you all come in the same taxi"? I find the irony of Northern clubs with 120+ years history, but fewer than 5,000 averages, filling their teams with journeymen just so they ca get the sky loot again next year, quite delicious......especially when they are decrying "away" fans.....who deliver little as a % of revenue for SL clubs


I believe you're in the middle of a Heatwave at present and the ankle snappers are still off school.......perhaps folk would rather spend their time on a beach and their cash on an icecream....could be any number of things......indeed it could be because of the French being there.....Leeds v Toulouse drew 10k in 2005........Wigan v Catalans 10k 2 years later......I don't recall threads decrying away attendances as an excuse to bin them back then.....


As I said, there are many reasons for slow sales, if they are in fact slow and I have no doubt that if it were St Helens v Hull, there's have been a few more in attendance, but you are spectacularly missing the point.

Attendances, especially away contingents DO NOT MATTER in modern sport.......but having a French Side in the Challenge Cup final will give us a few extra column inches in the papers, raise the profile of the game in France and maybe even attract new interest to the sport. Wigan v Hull FC last year attracted 8k fewer than Hull v Wire the year before........is that because Wire are better supported than Wigan....of could other factors have impacted this? Maybe we should bin Wigan because they obviously don't travel well.....

The reality is that the game has to adapt, adjust, improve or it will die. Wakefield v Castleford played in front of 7k in a decrepit old stadium with no facilities isn't going to getnoticed by the national media, but Catalans at Wembley will.

Lastly. Leeds, Wire and St Helens have a combined attendance figure of 34,276. .....if 75% of those are Season Ticket Holders, then surely Catalans would only need to bring 2,000 to fill the place......so rather than ask questions of Catalan, why not the other three clubs fans? It's 14 clicks from St Helens, 18 from Wire and an hours drive from Leeds.........

Back to attendances.......and money. Wakefield had 48,017 fans troop to BV this year. If we take 4,000 as the figure for "home fans only" then 44,000 home fans paid an average of £15 a ticket allowing for ST's, concessions etc......£660,000 in revenue. The other 4,07 probably all paid a score, so £80k in gate receipts over 11 games...so each home game had an average ticketing revenue from Away fans of £7,300...........so catalan, bringing nobody, cost Wakefield £7,300.

You need £4,000,000 turn over to run a mid table SL (figures from a number of SL owners) side....and your binning expansion because of £7,300......

I’m a Leeds fan an not going to the semi. Partly because of prior arrangements the day before and partly because I don’t feel excited about it and don’t think they’ll compete.

The argument about away supporters is not a strong one. When in Oz recently I asked about the high profile of league compared to the high attendances of Aussie Rules. The answer was AFL was better to watch live as it’s such a bit field the cameras can’t take it in but RL is better suited to TV so people want to watch it hence the TV money.

Our only real chances of TV money are through France and North America as unfortunately promoting a Cumbrian or Yorkshire team to SL does not broaden the TV viewing figures or demographic.
Away fans revenue whilst detracting from the at game experience pale into insignificance compared to the potential TV money.
That does not mean we should drop the heartlands but it does mean we need the new markets. Hopefully the success after the 2005 (? Not sure if it was then) union World Cup success and the growth in the UK would back this up to a certain extent.
We need the international game!

RL needs to spread out. Too many clubs too close to each other along that motorway. Same in Sydney. Spread out ffs.

You are asking a loaded question that supposes that this is a zero-sum game. It isn't.

Let's assume that Toronto and Toulouse replace Salford and Widnes this season - two clubs that (without checking the numbers) are probably the lowest-supported in the league. That gives us nine 'heartland' clubs at Magic Weekend, and three overseas, one of which has played in every MW event.

Yes, on paper, that may create an issue for the MW ticket sales. However, we should also be pushing and indeed expecting all clubs to grow. It is incumbent on all stakeholders in the sport to do more, and that is why this isn't a zero-sum game. If the nine heartland clubs sold an additional 1,000 tickets each averaged between them, I suspect (again, I don't have time to look for the numbers) that would more than cover the amount that Widnes and Salford bring to MW.

This same argument was made about the Summer Bash this year, and the crowd blamed on Bradford and HKR being replaced by TW and TO. Where were the questions about how many tickets the other clubs sold? Leigh excepted, most clubs were poorly represented and it is not and never was the responsibility of Bradford and HKR to fill the RFL's events alone.

You are putting forward this question to use it as an argument against extending the spread of the sport, but the question is flawed. If we are going to work on the basis that out clubs are lazy, inept or simply unable to grow then yes, ticket sales at MW will suffer with overseas clubs there. The problem is that we should not be working on that basis.

I don’t think any club wants to rely on away fans, but you can’t deny that the more of them there are at a game creates a better atmosphere. It’s nice to mingle with them too; the whole experience, for fans & the club themselves is just better so why shouldn’t we try & find ways to encourage away attendance?

So your answer to the "loaded" question is YES, as you are suggesting that the other 9 clubs make up the "shortfall".

And then we move on to whether this will be to the long term benefit of the game or, whether we are in gambling territory.

As I mentioned previously, I'm an advocate of expanding the game. However, the Toronto "experiment" just doesn't fit with an Anglo/French League.
If we had a magic wand to wave and there was a full time league over in N.America, that was of a similar standing to our own then there would be some benefit in some kind of competition where clubs from both sides of the Atlantic could take part.
However, to include 1 club initially, plus, however many more that are in the unknown, unpublished master plan IMO, just wont work and it's far better to speak up now than complain when the thing falls flat on its backside in a few years time.
This idea was given to us by a bloke who was so utterly successful, he has now had a sideways move away from SL and it could cause the total collapse of SL.

But it isn't. If you look at the already established sports in America (professional, college)they have already have the TV rights of the major networks. For RL to do anything will take years of ground work and are we prepared to give them that time? And the money won't go to all the SL clubs ala sky, just the American clubs. And in the end who do you think the American networks would want to shown dallas v LA or Dallas v Wigan? And that's simply because the figures watching would be more for the all American game so they can make more revenue of ads etc.
And if RL was more than just a foothold in France, it would be on a bigger French chanel than Al-Jazzeria (spelling). And seeing as sky don't have a market or spellers dishes in either country it's not in there interest for a major move tto these country's.

RU has a strong base so any changes can have a minimal impact. We don't, hence any changes tend to be of an all or nothing nature which will always have all bigger impact on the sport.

As for CC and Magic weekend. 2 things impact attendances. 1) the same teams tend to be in the final so neutral fans are more picky. When Hull beat Warrington it's the 1st time they'd won at Wembley so of course more fans will not have been as bothered of missing last year's final for other commitments. The timing, the CC final is to close to the GF and with the economy and jobs as they are, most people can't afford to do both (same with MW for the full weekend ), hence crowds being down. Plus the Convoluted Fixture list at magic doesn't help it (there are 2 other Hull derbies in Hull, why am I going to travel 100 miles to see the same game with less atmosphere). Add in the fact both are losing there shine and figure will drop regardless of who's playing.

As for the away fan question, it depends on if you go or not and on you (I'm slightly biased as I support a team that does have an anyway following). If you go , then personally I want away fans there.to improve the atmosphere, the banter etc. If your watching on TV then it doesn't really matter, as I'm sure Catalans/Toulouse/Toronto prefer away fans. But that should never be a major issue but an added bonus.

I've said since I first come on this site we need to improve the international calendar and game.
After all what attracts markets/tv/media more. A sport that has a strong international scene (And people are all ways interested in how England do not matter what the sport). Or a sport that about clubs.

Well, yes. But that's the entire reason you started this thread in the first place. Notwithstanding any other changes, replacing two clubs who sell circa 10,000 tickets between them with two clubs who will sell less than that will result in a lower crowd. Well done.

But like I said, it is not a zero-sum game. It's not unreasonable to expect other clubs to improve, to grow and to sell more.

There is also a fair argument that a more "diverse" Magic Weekend holds more appeal to neutrals, the media, commercial partners and our existing supporter base than six rounds of "The Bout to find the Best ex-Pit Village that even most Brits would struggle to find on a map". What other sport has a club event where you can see teams from three countries in one day? Any other sport would be absolutely hyping up and milking that selling point.



Even the most ardent supporters of expansion acknowledge the risks. The argument is that risk is an opportunity cost worth taking given the threats to this sport's prosperity and even its viability as a professional spectacle in the future.

Again, if the argument against expansion is "we should focus on the heartlands", those making that argument need to start explaining what that means, and why it would deliver a different result than what we currently have.



Other than in name only, why? Other than the body of water between the respective countries being bigger, why?

The travel distances that we're talking about here are not uncommon in many other professional sports. The opening round of the NRL season saw the NZ Warriors travel to Perth - a longer flight time than Manchester-Toronto.

The time-zone changes are not that difficult to overcome and actually offer potential benefits for broadcasters.

IMO their are two reasons why people say it can't work. The first is cost, but I would argue that those costs are an opportunity cost worth taking, and the other reason is that they don't want it to work.



Ah, the "why don't they make their own league" argument. There is a lot that both the UK and North America can offer each other in a Transatlantic league. We have access to an established fan base and talent pool, they have access to new audiences, commercial and media opportunities. I know isolationism is something of a zeitgeist in the UK at the moment, but I would suggest that there are mutual benefits from a joined-up approach.

It's not that I haven't answered the first question, it's just you didn't like the answer I gave as it doesn't fit your agenda. I have agreed that the inclusion of a foreign side may impact on ticket sales, as is the current heatwave, school holidays and a plethora of other dynamics.
As for the second question, I again answered this, but with the added statistic that finals crowds are in the majority neutrals and it is up to the RFL to address this.
either of your questions carry any weight, as they are thinly disguised attacks on anything beyond your front garden gate.

I have questions for you.
1. Would Toulouse v Catalan draw more than the 7k you got when Castleford visited?
2. Does 7,000 at Lamport look better than 2,000 at the AJ Bell on TV
3. Would Catalan v Toronto appeal to a better demographic of sponsor as opposed to Wakefield v Widnes?
4. At what stage does SL realise that the top 5 or 6 clubs are dragging the rest along for the ride and jettison those with bad stadiums, no crowds and no fiscal stability?

Hang on you've spent all season going to great lengths to dispel Toronto getting anywhere near 7k now to fit in with your argument they get 7k ? which is it ?

At this year's Summer Bash there were about 50 Toronto fans (maybe 60) in a central lower section & when TW scored the cameras zoomed in so close as to give the impression they were there in their masses !
Pan out a little & the truth is known !

There also may have been a couple of dozen in Executive boxes, maybe a percentage were ex Pats who knows, be interesting to know how many travelled from Canada !

Don't get me wrong it's not just TW, take London or Sheffield for example, equally appalling in absence at any away game, even at home London are a bad joke ! Salford & Widnes are both garbage in numbers away.

Substitute any of those mentioned with a Hull K.R *when they were Championship more than once or a Bradford or to a lesser degree Fax & suddenly things are a whole lot rosier !

As I have repeatedly said, I am suspicious of everything Toronto "claim", especially the 7k gates, but the reality is that even if they are getting only 5k....or 4k.....they are still doing it from a standing start and getting more than clubs like Wakefield.
The debate isn't about the size of Toronto's crowds....but the relevance of away fans when trying to argue against them. There seems to be a belief that more games between local rivals is the answer to RL's woes......it really isn't. What we need is to test the water with Toronto and whilst it's not at our expense, let them crack on, but if (as I suspect) they fail, then no worries.....we tried and it didn't work and it didn't cost us anything.....if a club folds either inside or outside SL it is a sad day, but the game is bigger than any club.

As it says in my signature....there are many reasons to not want expansion, but away fans isn't one of them and that is the topic of this thread.