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Quote Magic Superbeetle="Magic Superbeetle"I'm curious - who was the last ambitious player developed by a club who was then poached by Wigan/Saints/Leeds? We see overseas players like Jackson Hastings move around, but I think its generally quite rare for homegrown players to jump to those clubs (I think LMS is the only one currently at Saints who was signed from another SL club at the time who was homegrown) - its more common to sign from the Championship.
This may be colloquial but it tends to be the Huddersfield/Hull/Warrington level of those trying to break the triopoly who are more likely to go after other teams developing talent. Wakefield resisted selling Tom Johnstone for ages (and if they didnt have doubts over his fitness, I doubt theyd have hesitated to have kept him this year?) Warrington bid on Truman at Cas last year etc.
Maybe its naivety on my behalf, but the issue sits squarely before players make their first team debut. I don't see any likelihood of Mikey Lewis being signed by Saints (Dodd), Wigan (Smith) or Leeds (Sinfield) and if Hull KR can bring another couple through next year and start building that pathway, it would be a really positive thing. The risks of loss of form and missing out on the playoffs, leading to signing another scrumhalf, and HKR having equally talented players in the next academy group can be mitigated, but understandably really challenging.'"
Good points/questions. Before I answer I should probably acknowledge that my view isn't representative of general Hull KR opinion, from CEO to the vast, vast majority of fans. In fact, it is pretty much the polar opposite.
I guess I am going fair way back to players like Shenton (fairly briefly and trophylessly, admittedly), LMS, Clubb and Tom Briscoe who have retired or will do in the not too distant. They're the ones who spring to mind... then again, I'm getting old and disinterested, and I barely knew who four-time dream teamer Morgan Knowles was until last week. Scott Taylor is the obvious one from a Hull KR perspective - I don't think many would argue against him being the best Hull KR-produced player of the SL era (well, Jon Wilkin obviously - but I mean after our first promotion). There were other factors at play, but not long after the club announced their 'building for the future' strategy for 2012 onwards, he left to immediately win the double with Wigan in 2013.
Maybe it isn't happening as much now, but look at who Hull KR (and for good measure, Hull FC) produced during the decade that followed Taylor's debut.
https://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/sport/r ... ue-4212834
https://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/sport/r ... 10-4169652
I can't be bothered to check but I don't think there's a full England or GB international in there (like Taylor, Josh Hodgson debuted in 2009). Cas and Wakefield have hardly been prolific either.
Now, if somebody could explain to me why these academies have been so relatively unproductive for so long and that there are realistic steps that they can take to remedy that without cutting 25% off the first team wage bill, or something similarly self defeating, then I'll very happily change my mind. Who wouldn't want a substantial no- or low-cost benefit. But unless or until one of the less well-off clubs makes it work, I'll remain skeptical based on what I've seen these last ~15 years.
Without major (and unlikely) external investment in clubs outside the top group, the only way I can see to have a more compelling pro RL competition on this side of the world is through a fundamental restructure. I hope I'm wrong, because that also seems unlikely.
Edit: Jordan Abdull played for England last year. |
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Quote Magic Superbeetle="Magic Superbeetle"I'm curious - who was the last ambitious player developed by a club who was then poached by Wigan/Saints/Leeds? We see overseas players like Jackson Hastings move around, but I think its generally quite rare for homegrown players to jump to those clubs (I think LMS is the only one currently at Saints who was signed from another SL club at the time who was homegrown) - its more common to sign from the Championship.
This may be colloquial but it tends to be the Huddersfield/Hull/Warrington level of those trying to break the triopoly who are more likely to go after other teams developing talent. Wakefield resisted selling Tom Johnstone for ages (and if they didnt have doubts over his fitness, I doubt theyd have hesitated to have kept him this year?) Warrington bid on Truman at Cas last year etc.
Maybe its naivety on my behalf, but the issue sits squarely before players make their first team debut. I don't see any likelihood of Mikey Lewis being signed by Saints (Dodd), Wigan (Smith) or Leeds (Sinfield) and if Hull KR can bring another couple through next year and start building that pathway, it would be a really positive thing. The risks of loss of form and missing out on the playoffs, leading to signing another scrumhalf, and HKR having equally talented players in the next academy group can be mitigated, but understandably really challenging.'"
Good points/questions. Before I answer I should probably acknowledge that my view isn't representative of general Hull KR opinion, from CEO to the vast, vast majority of fans. In fact, it is pretty much the polar opposite.
I guess I am going fair way back to players like Shenton (fairly briefly and trophylessly, admittedly), LMS, Clubb and Tom Briscoe who have retired or will do in the not too distant. They're the ones who spring to mind... then again, I'm getting old and disinterested, and I barely knew who four-time dream teamer Morgan Knowles was until last week. Scott Taylor is the obvious one from a Hull KR perspective - I don't think many would argue against him being the best Hull KR-produced player of the SL era (well, Jon Wilkin obviously - but I mean after our first promotion). There were other factors at play, but not long after the club announced their 'building for the future' strategy for 2012 onwards, he left to immediately win the double with Wigan in 2013.
Maybe it isn't happening as much now, but look at who Hull KR (and for good measure, Hull FC) produced during the decade that followed Taylor's debut.
https://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/sport/r ... ue-4212834
https://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/sport/r ... 10-4169652
I can't be bothered to check but I don't think there's a full England or GB international in there (like Taylor, Josh Hodgson debuted in 2009). Cas and Wakefield have hardly been prolific either.
Now, if somebody could explain to me why these academies have been so relatively unproductive for so long and that there are realistic steps that they can take to remedy that without cutting 25% off the first team wage bill, or something similarly self defeating, then I'll very happily change my mind. Who wouldn't want a substantial no- or low-cost benefit. But unless or until one of the less well-off clubs makes it work, I'll remain skeptical based on what I've seen these last ~15 years.
Without major (and unlikely) external investment in clubs outside the top group, the only way I can see to have a more compelling pro RL competition on this side of the world is through a fundamental restructure. I hope I'm wrong, because that also seems unlikely.
Edit: Jordan Abdull played for England last year. | |
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| Quote Pumpetypump="Pumpetypump"I think the decision to take away Bradford's Academy licence was a striking example of how incompetence blights the game, and thwarts its success. Even setting aside my own feelings about losing one ray of sunshine in an otherwise bleak few years, it made no strategic sense. It has always been an absolute production line of talent, with raw recruits coming in to the Bradford first team, and those with added sparkle moving into Super league. It was a win/win.
The rather mealy-mouthed backtracking from the RFL about the licences was welcome but how have we got to a position where our governing body wants to close down established player pathways? I just can't get my head around it.'"
At the risk of sounding like I am defending the decision or the RFL (neither of which I agree with), I do know that Sport England put a lot of emphasis on access to education and quality of facilities and coaching. The RFL additionally put a lot of emphasis on geographical distribution for the sake of the community game. I don't know the Bradford situation but it is entirely possible that during the financial collapses either coaching personal or facilities were degraded? The problem we all have is that it feels like the RFL go out of their way to be as opaque and obtuse as possible, and expect to be able to announce these decisions from on high without any challenge or explanation. IMG seem to be taking this to extremes judging by the "vote" on Wednesday, without even giving the clubs sight on what they're voting on.
The counter argument to the historic production line at Bradford is were now seeing that talent come through at Wakefield with Murphy, Shaw, Bowes, Esah(sp?), Aydin coming through - whose to say if they had come through 15 years ago they wouldnt be on Bradfords books? | | | |
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| Quote Mild Rover="Mild Rover"Now, if somebody could explain to me why these academies have been so relatively unproductive for so long and that there are realistic steps that they can take to remedy that without cutting 25% off the first team wage bill, or something similarly self defeating, then I'll very happily change my mind. Who wouldn't want a substantial no- or low-cost benefit. But unless or until one of the less well-off clubs makes it work, I'll remain skeptical based on what I've seen these last ~15 years.
'"
That's the million dollar question. I would say based on your response that its about as frequent top clubs poaching junior talent as it is top clubs losing players to RU/ NRL (again not data driven, just going off the conversation we have here) so the poaching argument holds no water - and I suspect that will be a recurring theme of these conversations; every time one of the reasons for not investing time/energy/money in the academy model which certain clubs trot out just doesn't hold.
I fear there is no quick fix. Clubs trying to shortcut have effectively given a few teams over a decades headstart and I dont know how you can erase that without a) damaging the good work the triopoly do and b) without significant investment | | |
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| Club Coach | 3829 | Cronulla Sharks |
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I suppose we'll have to wait until their "Golden Generation" retire, similar to what happened at Leeds.
But if St's were to plummet in the same manner, the town would be on suicide watch.
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| Moderator | 12673 | Hull KR |
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| Quote Magic Superbeetle="Magic Superbeetle"That's the million dollar question. I would say based on your response that its about as frequent top clubs poaching junior talent as it is top clubs losing players to RU/ NRL (again not data driven, just going off the conversation we have here) so the poaching argument holds no water - and I suspect that will be a recurring theme of these conversations; every time one of the reasons for not investing time/energy/money in the academy model which certain clubs trot out just doesn't hold.
I fear there is no quick fix. Clubs trying to shortcut have effectively given a few teams over a decades headstart and I dont know how you can erase that without a) damaging the good work the triopoly do and b) without significant investment'"
But, in fairness, I’m advocating a restructure in which there’d be a much stronger player pathway with a number of traditional clubs providing part-time stepping stones to a smaller number of new big teams who would benefit from all the things the current big teams and their fans advocate. It’s a recognition and acceptance that there is no easy fix, or perhaps any fix at all as things stand, and that to have more competitive teams substantial sacrifices would have to be made.
I think your point about investing time, energy and money is interesting, and I’d love to know more about why Hull KR and some other clubs have struggled so badly in this area in terms of effort vs competency. However, it comes back to the old Saints/Wigan/Leeds have great cultures thing. I’m a great believer in culture, it trumps strategy etc. And I accept that those clubs do have strong cultures. But it feels like that is sometimes used to close down debate around other structural issues, and plans that don’t start and finish with a focus on youth development in the Saints et al. model. | | | |
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| Quote The Devil's Advocate="The Devil's Advocate"I suppose we'll have to wait until their "Golden Generation" retire, similar to what happened at Leeds.
But if St's were to plummet in the same manner, the town would be on suicide watch.'"
Sadly it already is one of the country’s suicide “hotspots”. Genuinely. | | |
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| First Team Player | 1219 | Wakefield Trinity |
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| Quote The Devil's Advocate="The Devil's Advocate"I suppose we'll have to wait until their "Golden Generation" retire, similar to what happened at Leeds.
But if St's were to plummet in the same manner, the town would be on suicide watch.'"
You will be waiting a long time. In Dodd and Welsby they have 2 world class halfbacks for many years to come along with a once in generation talent full back, Harry Robertson that every single top SL club wanted but hes a Saints fan. They then also have Delaney who will be the second best prop in the country after Lees in a couple of years. | | |
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| Moderator | 39730 | Warrington Wolves |
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Quote Mild Rover="Mild Rover"Good points/questions. Before I answer I should probably acknowledge that my view isn't representative of general Hull KR opinion, from CEO to the vast, vast majority of fans. In fact, it is pretty much the polar opposite.
I guess I am going fair way back to players like Shenton (fairly briefly and trophylessly, admittedly), LMS, Clubb and Tom Briscoe who have retired or will do in the not too distant. They're the ones who spring to mind... then again, I'm getting old and disinterested, and I barely knew who four-time dream teamer Morgan Knowles was until last week. Scott Taylor is the obvious one from a Hull KR perspective - I don't think many would argue against him being the best Hull KR-produced player of the SL era (well, Jon Wilkin obviously - but I mean after our first promotion). There were other factors at play, but not long after the club announced their 'building for the future' strategy for 2012 onwards, he left to immediately win the double with Wigan in 2013.
Maybe it isn't happening as much now, but look at who Hull KR (and for good measure, Hull FC) produced during the decade that followed Taylor's debut.
https://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/sport/r ... ue-4212834
https://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/sport/r ... 10-4169652
I can't be bothered to check but I don't think there's a full England or GB international in there (like Taylor, Josh Hodgson debuted in 2009). Cas and Wakefield have hardly been prolific either.
Now, if somebody could explain to me why these academies have been so relatively unproductive for so long and that there are realistic steps that they can take to remedy that without cutting 25% off the first team wage bill, or something similarly self defeating, then I'll very happily change my mind. Who wouldn't want a substantial no- or low-cost benefit. But unless or until one of the less well-off clubs makes it work, I'll remain skeptical based on what I've seen these last ~15 years.
Without major (and unlikely) external investment in clubs outside the top group, the only way I can see to have a more compelling pro RL competition on this side of the world is through a fundamental restructure. I hope I'm wrong, because that also seems unlikely.
Edit: Jordan Abdull played for England last year.'"
when did watts come through? |
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Quote Mild Rover="Mild Rover"Good points/questions. Before I answer I should probably acknowledge that my view isn't representative of general Hull KR opinion, from CEO to the vast, vast majority of fans. In fact, it is pretty much the polar opposite.
I guess I am going fair way back to players like Shenton (fairly briefly and trophylessly, admittedly), LMS, Clubb and Tom Briscoe who have retired or will do in the not too distant. They're the ones who spring to mind... then again, I'm getting old and disinterested, and I barely knew who four-time dream teamer Morgan Knowles was until last week. Scott Taylor is the obvious one from a Hull KR perspective - I don't think many would argue against him being the best Hull KR-produced player of the SL era (well, Jon Wilkin obviously - but I mean after our first promotion). There were other factors at play, but not long after the club announced their 'building for the future' strategy for 2012 onwards, he left to immediately win the double with Wigan in 2013.
Maybe it isn't happening as much now, but look at who Hull KR (and for good measure, Hull FC) produced during the decade that followed Taylor's debut.
https://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/sport/r ... ue-4212834
https://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/sport/r ... 10-4169652
I can't be bothered to check but I don't think there's a full England or GB international in there (like Taylor, Josh Hodgson debuted in 2009). Cas and Wakefield have hardly been prolific either.
Now, if somebody could explain to me why these academies have been so relatively unproductive for so long and that there are realistic steps that they can take to remedy that without cutting 25% off the first team wage bill, or something similarly self defeating, then I'll very happily change my mind. Who wouldn't want a substantial no- or low-cost benefit. But unless or until one of the less well-off clubs makes it work, I'll remain skeptical based on what I've seen these last ~15 years.
Without major (and unlikely) external investment in clubs outside the top group, the only way I can see to have a more compelling pro RL competition on this side of the world is through a fundamental restructure. I hope I'm wrong, because that also seems unlikely.
Edit: Jordan Abdull played for England last year.'"
when did watts come through? | |
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| Quote Fantastic Mr Cat="Fantastic Mr Cat"when did watts come through?'"
SL debut in 2008. Played for Cas Tigers vs Cas Lock Lane in the CC as a 16 year old in 2007. | | |
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| Quote Saddened!="Saddened!"I can't help but look at the other Grand Final this weekend as the answer. A Saints v Leeds academy Grand Final. That is why the clubs that win SL win SL. Because they have a feeder system that works (Warrington do too, but they neglect it and aren't patient enough). The likes of Saints, Leeds and Wigan have academy players banging down the door to get a chance. Other clubs aren't allowed a scholarship setup. That is one of the biggest things IMG need to fix. Every club in Super League AND the Championship should be made to run a proper scholarship programme and academy. If they won't or can't afford it, they really don't deserve to be in those competitions, get them out and replace them with clubs that will.'"
Totally and utterly correct.
Saints essentially fielded an academy side v Cas in April and I think the game finished 30 10. Our first team scraped past a bunch of youngsters but they're very good youngsters who some will be the next generation at saints some will drip into lower leagues. But you aren't talking 1 or 2 good young players you're talking 10-15 from 1 batch and that conveyorbelt continues and continues. Same with leeds and wigan.
Saints can afford to lose star (barba coote etc) players because their kids are damn good now and will only get better. | | |
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| Quote TheWarringtonWolve69="TheWarringtonWolve69"You will be waiting a long time. In Dodd and Welsby they have 2 world class halfbacks for many years to come along with a once in generation talent full back, Harry Robertson that every single top SL club wanted but hes a Saints fan. They then also have Delaney who will be the second best prop in the country after Lees in a couple of years.'" Teehee, this is what the arrogant sliver of fans of all clubs who are at the top think just before the rot sets in.
The realist (smarter) majority know that good times never last forever. | | | |
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| International Star | 10464 | Huddersfield Giants |
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| The draft academy system was one proposed many years ago when a certain rugby union player was heavily involved in our sport at that level. The RFL were all for it, saw it as a way of strengthening all clubs. A sports scientist friend of mine was involved in some trials with the RFL looking at how young players are developed from a S & C perspective and was involved in discussing how this system would be set up.
The system went to vote and Leeds, saints, wigan and Bradford (that’s how long ago this was) we’re massively against the idea (can’t imagine why  ) and there was talk of clubs threatening to pull out if this was forced upon them. | | | |
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