The problem is, that it shouldn't be about heartlands versus expansion, it should be both together. How they can work and move the sport onwards side by side. Progressing the sport. There are people on here who think it should be Toronto or Wakefield for example,When what it really should be is Toronto AND Wakefield.

Your right, the finances into the sport need to be improved. And as much as clubs are to be blamed for just hoping rather than promoting. The RFL can also be blamed, for a lack of a media push, a lack of getting the sport out there. The Eddie stobart deal so devalued the sport. They set it back years. In my opinion (and I know other won't agree), the franchise system did nothing to help. A league were nothing happens doesn't push a sport forward. The consent arguing for who gets the money, makes the sport seem petty. We don't do enough to make the sport come across in a good light. And until there's a proper international calender we will be seen as a small club sport. Which makes the whole sport harder to market.

We're always going to struggle to retain players. We all know that the Nrl is the best league, so of course we're always going to lose players to there. If you want to be the best, you have to play the best. And the fact that RU has such an international calender, means that players who want more than just a small club game, are going to go there.

Your totally right about the grass roots. The lack of funding and help we give them compared to say football is disgusting. But we also need to give young players a clear route to success. And that to me is academy, reserves 1st team. Who wants to play for 4 clubs on DR, or play in a sport were you might not get a game for weeks on end. To bring the best you have to show them how they're going to succeed and become one of your best.

You could argue that the standards aren't falling, but the players are getting better. But to me the games becoming boring. More sides are going for the 5 drives and a kick approach. Trying to win/milk penalties to move them down the pitch. Scoring off kicks, rather than spontaneous play. This isn't helped by coache's constantly going on about completing sets, doing the basics etc. If the product on the pitch isn't great, crowds aren't going to come flocking in. And long term fans get bored and choose there games to go to.
Plus the changes in society don't help our sport. The fact that there's so much football, and things to do without leaving the house. So little money avaliable to the average person, less time to relax. We're a working class sport predominantly and if they can't come there's no one to fill that void. Add in the money and Domination of football, the age group going to RL gets older. And we're doing very little to attract a younger denigration to the sport.
And if crowds don't come flocking in, then advertising and sponsorship falls. What the answer is I don't know, but something needs to be done.

This is precisely the nub of the entire argument. And it’s entirely the point of the whole debate.
I’m absolutely in favour of expansion. I agree totally with all the arguments in favour of Toronto, Toulouse etc etc. I think it’s a really exciting time for rugby league. But you and other posters have all acknowledged that we don’t know if Toronto (especially Toronto) will be a success, yet you think it’s worth a punt and it’s worth jeopardising the existence of clubs like Wakefield, Salford, Widnes etc.
Well, the history of expansion clubs isn’t too encouraging is it - Paris, Gateshead, Wrexham, Cardiff, Scarborough, Mansfield...... So, we ditch the clubs that are ‘holding the game back’ but the great North American dream crashes and burns. What do we have then? Oh yes a professional game comprising Wigan, Saints, Warrington, Leeds, Hull and Catalans. We could probably engineer Bradford, Toulouse and London in there too along with Cas. A ten team SL with the rest of the game dying on its ar5e. Even if Toronto succeeds (and I seriously hope it does) and more N American teams also come on board why do you think that it has to be at the expense of existing clubs? Why can’t we have expansion AND strong heartlands clubs? That’s the fundamental question facing the game. At the moment it doesn’t have an answer and neither do you. Rugby league can’t afford to lose a single club and all your statistics and passionate arguments are worth diddly if we jettison clubs and follow your preferred strategy because the game will lose its history, its heart, its soul and its very reason for existing.

But you’re not anti Wakefield???
And how do you know that Trinity aren’t ‘the answer’? If we’d been having this discussion back in 1980 you’d have been saying Wigan were part of the problem and Widnes were one of the teams we should be looking up to. Ten years ago it would have been Bradford. As you say, Toronto might not be the answer but don’t kid yourself that you definitely know what the answer is.

I can't speak for others on here but I personally don't believe that expansion has to be an either/or scenario. Yes, you have to set a limit of clubs in the top division at some point, but this isn't about ditching the loyal and faithful wife for a 21 year old blonde with bigger boobs.

What it is about is raising standards and raising the bar in terms of what clubs need to do to grow the sport, market the sport and themselves, and reach new audiences. What I think many who are against TW are most fearful of is that they set a standard that their club can't reach.

As I said earlier, there are some on here for whom nothing that TW does will ever be enough. If they pull in big crowds, those crowds are "exaggerated" and they've been counting the pixels on their TV screen to prove it. If they engage new, younger audiences, those fans are "only there for a beer festival". And if they attract big sponsors, that won't matter because they "don't bring any away fans".

TW have done everything that could have been asked of them in less than 2 years. For some their concern isn't about the state of RL, it's a fear that TW may set a standard that their club doesn't have the ambition or ability to reach.

That’s fine, couldn’t agree more. Clubs come and go and, if they can’t reach the required standards, on the field or off, they must find the level at which they can function. I just get the feeling that that’s not what some posters on here are advocating.

FWIW I agree with you (to a large degree anyway), I just fear for them if their benefactor pulls out as they have nothing to support them otherwise.

Btw, maybe it was the microphones in use at the game, but when the guy on the tannoy asked the crowd to "make some noise" it did sound like the Toronto faithful had been rudely awakened from their private conversations. I guess it's down to the way fans support their team, but the Canadians do seem very quiet!!

Thats not at all what I said at all and I think you know it.
I'm ok with expansion as long as "we" dont risk everything in the process and that those teams that are invited are a good "fit" with the league and the progressive evolution of the game.
Planting seeds in the desert in highly likely to be successful and it does seem that "our" sport is incapable of learning from some of its past mistakes.
You seem to have a problem with people who dare to question an opposing view to your own and yes, I may be wrong and you may be right that N. America is the promised land.
Let time be the judge of this one and lets just hope that, when this experiment has run its course, RL remains as a pro sport in the UK (and France).

Kent Invicta ? Celtic Crusaders ? Carlisle ?

Yeah, it's really funny, my sides are splitting whilst I'm trying to reply.
Toronto have spent massively compared to the competition that they've had thus far.
However, assuming that they gain promotion, they will be on a level playing field with many SL clubs and not spending substantially more.
We will then see just how good they are.

I love the Wakey criticisms about them not spending, quite ironic when you look at the sides that they have beaten this season, Wigan, Saints, Hull FC...........
FWIW, we should have been increasing the cap,year on year, since SL began and for those still blaming "clubs like Wakefield" for holding everyone else back, how many clubs are using the second marque player 1,2,3 ??
Other clubs just use the smaller clubs as an excuse for their own failings and their inability to compete higher up the table.

My passion maybe, but not the statistics.
The game losing its History, it's heart and Soul and its reason for existing.......remind me why the game exists? Ah, that's it......so players could be recompensed for their time playing. Currently the players are paid only because the TV deal with Sky allows it. Remove or reduce the Sky money and see what happens (have a gander at the Leigh and Featherstone Rovers boards)......as for the games History and Heart and Soul, Leigh averaged 6,521 last year in the regular SL season.......3,538 this year.....where's the 2982 missing fans gone........top flight competition is what they want......not History, Heart & Soul.
Those that hark for the days of winter rugby, local derbies, bus trips 20 minutes up to road to away games......those people are dying in their droves and as our average age of supporter goes up, the number in attendance go down. I care little if Toronto implode or not......they have introduced the game (and beer festivals) to a new audience and good on them. Wakey got 7,020 for the visit of local rivals Castleford, Toronto "declared" 8,000+ for the visit of Featherstone......a town slightly more than a bus trip around the corner. I suspect they are adding 25% to their gates based on corporates given but not using tickets, so they are still averaging 5,250 at games.....they look to have a business plan that none of the failed expansion clubs ever had. Expansion done the PSG/Crusaders/London way involved sticking posts in the ground, announcing KO times and expecting curious locals to come and watch, get hooked and buy season tickets......the disputes I have had with London over their failure in this department are well recorded.......but Toronto look like a different animal. YES.....I still am skeptical, but for a chance to crack a new market with new sponsors and new revenue streams, I'd bury those clubs that treat survival as a victory.....

What exactly have clubs like Wakefield, Halifax, Batley, Keighley, Oldham, Rochdale etc actually done over the past 30 years with regards to the expansion or enhancement of the sport overall? Pray tell me??
TWP and other potential NA clubs open up new markets which bring EXPANSION to the sport; money, exposure, people, connections. Have any of the above clubs been able to support or maintain such factors??