But it isn't. If you look at the already established sports in America (professional, college)they have already have the TV rights of the major networks. For RL to do anything will take years of ground work and are we prepared to give them that time? And the money won't go to all the SL clubs ala sky, just the American clubs. And in the end who do you think the American networks would want to shown dallas v LA or Dallas v Wigan? And that's simply because the figures watching would be more for the all American game so they can make more revenue of ads etc.
And if RL was more than just a foothold in France, it would be on a bigger French chanel than Al-Jazzeria (spelling). And seeing as sky don't have a market or spellers dishes in either country it's not in there interest for a major move tto these country's.

RU has a strong base so any changes can have a minimal impact. We don't, hence any changes tend to be of an all or nothing nature which will always have all bigger impact on the sport.

As for CC and Magic weekend. 2 things impact attendances. 1) the same teams tend to be in the final so neutral fans are more picky. When Hull beat Warrington it's the 1st time they'd won at Wembley so of course more fans will not have been as bothered of missing last year's final for other commitments. The timing, the CC final is to close to the GF and with the economy and jobs as they are, most people can't afford to do both (same with MW for the full weekend ), hence crowds being down. Plus the Convoluted Fixture list at magic doesn't help it (there are 2 other Hull derbies in Hull, why am I going to travel 100 miles to see the same game with less atmosphere). Add in the fact both are losing there shine and figure will drop regardless of who's playing.

As for the away fan question, it depends on if you go or not and on you (I'm slightly biased as I support a team that does have an anyway following). If you go , then personally I want away fans there.to improve the atmosphere, the banter etc. If your watching on TV then it doesn't really matter, as I'm sure Catalans/Toulouse/Toronto prefer away fans. But that should never be a major issue but an added bonus.

I've said since I first come on this site we need to improve the international calendar and game.
After all what attracts markets/tv/media more. A sport that has a strong international scene (And people are all ways interested in how England do not matter what the sport). Or a sport that about clubs.

Well, yes. But that's the entire reason you started this thread in the first place. Notwithstanding any other changes, replacing two clubs who sell circa 10,000 tickets between them with two clubs who will sell less than that will result in a lower crowd. Well done.

But like I said, it is not a zero-sum game. It's not unreasonable to expect other clubs to improve, to grow and to sell more.

There is also a fair argument that a more "diverse" Magic Weekend holds more appeal to neutrals, the media, commercial partners and our existing supporter base than six rounds of "The Bout to find the Best ex-Pit Village that even most Brits would struggle to find on a map". What other sport has a club event where you can see teams from three countries in one day? Any other sport would be absolutely hyping up and milking that selling point.



Even the most ardent supporters of expansion acknowledge the risks. The argument is that risk is an opportunity cost worth taking given the threats to this sport's prosperity and even its viability as a professional spectacle in the future.

Again, if the argument against expansion is "we should focus on the heartlands", those making that argument need to start explaining what that means, and why it would deliver a different result than what we currently have.



Other than in name only, why? Other than the body of water between the respective countries being bigger, why?

The travel distances that we're talking about here are not uncommon in many other professional sports. The opening round of the NRL season saw the NZ Warriors travel to Perth - a longer flight time than Manchester-Toronto.

The time-zone changes are not that difficult to overcome and actually offer potential benefits for broadcasters.

IMO their are two reasons why people say it can't work. The first is cost, but I would argue that those costs are an opportunity cost worth taking, and the other reason is that they don't want it to work.



Ah, the "why don't they make their own league" argument. There is a lot that both the UK and North America can offer each other in a Transatlantic league. We have access to an established fan base and talent pool, they have access to new audiences, commercial and media opportunities. I know isolationism is something of a zeitgeist in the UK at the moment, but I would suggest that there are mutual benefits from a joined-up approach.

It's not that I haven't answered the first question, it's just you didn't like the answer I gave as it doesn't fit your agenda. I have agreed that the inclusion of a foreign side may impact on ticket sales, as is the current heatwave, school holidays and a plethora of other dynamics.
As for the second question, I again answered this, but with the added statistic that finals crowds are in the majority neutrals and it is up to the RFL to address this.
either of your questions carry any weight, as they are thinly disguised attacks on anything beyond your front garden gate.

I have questions for you.
1. Would Toulouse v Catalan draw more than the 7k you got when Castleford visited?
2. Does 7,000 at Lamport look better than 2,000 at the AJ Bell on TV
3. Would Catalan v Toronto appeal to a better demographic of sponsor as opposed to Wakefield v Widnes?
4. At what stage does SL realise that the top 5 or 6 clubs are dragging the rest along for the ride and jettison those with bad stadiums, no crowds and no fiscal stability?

Hang on you've spent all season going to great lengths to dispel Toronto getting anywhere near 7k now to fit in with your argument they get 7k ? which is it ?

At this year's Summer Bash there were about 50 Toronto fans (maybe 60) in a central lower section & when TW scored the cameras zoomed in so close as to give the impression they were there in their masses !
Pan out a little & the truth is known !

There also may have been a couple of dozen in Executive boxes, maybe a percentage were ex Pats who knows, be interesting to know how many travelled from Canada !

Don't get me wrong it's not just TW, take London or Sheffield for example, equally appalling in absence at any away game, even at home London are a bad joke ! Salford & Widnes are both garbage in numbers away.

Substitute any of those mentioned with a Hull K.R *when they were Championship more than once or a Bradford or to a lesser degree Fax & suddenly things are a whole lot rosier !

As I have repeatedly said, I am suspicious of everything Toronto "claim", especially the 7k gates, but the reality is that even if they are getting only 5k....or 4k.....they are still doing it from a standing start and getting more than clubs like Wakefield.
The debate isn't about the size of Toronto's crowds....but the relevance of away fans when trying to argue against them. There seems to be a belief that more games between local rivals is the answer to RL's woes......it really isn't. What we need is to test the water with Toronto and whilst it's not at our expense, let them crack on, but if (as I suspect) they fail, then no worries.....we tried and it didn't work and it didn't cost us anything.....if a club folds either inside or outside SL it is a sad day, but the game is bigger than any club.

As it says in my signature....there are many reasons to not want expansion, but away fans isn't one of them and that is the topic of this thread.

OK maybe just stick to the crowd you believe it to be then rather than making the example look better in this particular argument.

Your still hiding from the questions that I asked regarding poor ticket uptake for the double header and the effect on attendances at RL events, where the expansion clubs compete.
I've fully understood the money argument that you have put forward and 10/10 for throwing in the Catalan attendance at Wembley to counter my previous comments and thank you also for trying to point out how the Catalan attendances for their games in the UK "are close to the average", although you utterly failed to mention that this was largely due to promotions by many clubs to try and show a "reasonable" attendance.
However, with regards away fans at games, it's not just about pound notes, or total attendance.
Without reasonable numbers of away fans, the matches become stale and lacking in atmosphere and I know this doesn't matter on the balance sheet but, in the long term this will perpetuate the decline in numbers wishing to attend.
Of course, you still get to see the game and admire the skills on display but, match days should be about more than just numbers on the balance sheet.
It's no coincidence that the great derby games attract the most interest within the game and when the competing sides are both on form, we all enjoy the game, whether shown on TV or, whether we attend in person.
There is a "massive" drive towards the corporate side of things, with added value tickets/ packages but, although these contribute really well on the balance sheet, you still need the passionate "regular" fans to help bring the games to life.
If not, we end up with a sanitised sport, purely for the benefit of the TV companies and the sport itself becomes lost.

=#FF0000How many neutrals attend a RL fixture & why would they suddenly support an expansion team over a well known team ? Is it just because YOU WANT THEM TO ?

Ave u evor bin 2 Skool ?

So you've based your calculations on incomplete figures, no doubt incomplete because you wanted/needed/desired to massage them !
Which year have you taken your incomplete figures from ?

Is this argument with a Wakey fan "unwinnable" because you want it to be a 'who can shout loudest & longest' game ?

You sunshine are like a third nipple, a bit gross & nobody wants one !