Part of the problem is I do not know what the rules actually say, & I would wager most don't on here either. A number no doubt take their advice from the pair of cretins on Sky. So I doubt there is usually clear transgression as such & that it is being ignored, as ever it is the players, officials & fans' interpretation of the laws, which is down to human error.

Quote: tigertot "Part of the problem is I do not know what the rules actually say, & I would wager most don't on here either. A number no doubt take their advice from the pair of cretins on Sky. So I doubt there is usually clear transgression as such & that it is being ignored, as ever it is the players, officials & fans' interpretation of the laws, which is down to human error.'" Laws of the game can be found here: www.therfl.co.uk/more/referee About half way down the page.

Quote: tigertot "Part of the problem is I do not know what the rules actually say, & I would wager most don't on here either. A number no doubt take their advice from the pair of cretins on Sky. So I doubt there is usually clear transgression as such & that it is being ignored, as ever it is the players, officials & fans' interpretation of the laws, which is down to human error.'" Laws of the game can be found here: www.therfl.co.uk/more/referee About half way down the page.

And that's the problem. The rules need to be tightened up to remove the need for interpretation

1. The laws were translated by a Japanese-born Serbian from Cyrillic. Or at least many of them read that way. They are often very poorly expressed, and this does nothing to help interpretation. As so many past threads demonstrate.

2. I am not confident that the laws as per RFL website are actually 100% the same as whatever the laws are in the refs' handbook Does anyone know?

3. Due to (1) and due to a need to tinker and address what are seen as "problem areas" there are various directives issued to the refs, some we know about, many we clearly don't, but these of course have the effect of being revisions of the laws, or else how they naturally read; they MUSt in effect be - as otherwise they wouldn't be necessary.

So, badly written laws, and a secretive system of temporary interpretations and instructions. It is no surprise none of us can really follow it.

I've thought this for a long time. The Laws are not all encompassing (such as the "flop"icon_wink.gif and many are non specific in their terminology - such as, and not exclusiveDirection of Pass 1. The direction of a pass is relative to the player making it and not to the actual path relative to the ground. A player running towards his opponents’ goal line may throw the ball towards a colleague who is behind him but because of the thrower’s own momentum the ball travels forward relative to the ground. This is not a forward pass as the thrower has not passed the ball forward in relation to himself. This is particularly noticeable when a running player makes a high, lobbed pass.[/i

Have you got that? I have'nt.

That is easy & obvious. There is a training video (from yawnion IIRC) demonstrating it, it has parallel lines at intervals of a couple of metres. It is therefore obvious if the receiver is behind the passer & if the initial trajectory is not forward in relation to the lines. What is also obvious is that the ball can end up metres in front of the line from where the passer passed due to the ball's momentum.

That is largely impossible & I would argue unnecessary as there isn't, in reality, that much of a problem. The problem is largely with the fans.

At the end of the day it is all subjective anyway; even things which are ostensibly totally objective, like a ball touching the ground for instance, are all, "in the [very subjective] opinion of the referee".

Momentum is a product of mass x velocity. It is also a vector which has magnitude and direction.
Mass is the rugby ball.
Velocity the speed given to the ball when thrown/passed.
Magnitude - size, distance etc used for comparison.
Direction is direction the ball travels.
Since the ball is an inanimate object with so means of self propulsion it can only travel in the direction it is thrown/passed.
There can be no momentum rule in rugby.
The clue in the rule is" relative to the player" - backwards from the throwing/passing player - only way, all the rest is tosh.

But obviously, there is a problem, if there is a problem with the fans, often with the players, very often with the coaches even to the extent of regular fines for open criticism. If, in reality, there isn't that much of a problem - then what's all that about?

As for the "momentum" rule - it's easy. Viewing the pass from the side, just imagine obliterating the pitch, obliterate the markings, the stands, obliterate from your mind any point of reference. However fast or slow the player's little legs may be going, have him suspended in the dead centre of your mental screen, legs thrashing furiously. Then, you do not have to take his forward motion into account, you don't have to consider the pitch, or the lines, the stands, the fans, you can ignore other players, you can ignore everything else. You can concentrate 100% on the only thing that matters, does the ball go forward from the hands, or does it not.

I suspect, if you re-think that bit, you may find that, as Isaac Newton suggested, objects can change direction due to external influences applied to them.
That, in our particular case of the rugby ball, would include the forward momentum of the player making the pass which would be imparted into the ball and also [if applicable] any wind, not to mention any external object [other player] which may be in the way.

If the players momentum is taken into consideration any ball would travel at the same speed in the same direction as the player, ie the ball is carried by the player. As soon as the player releases the ball it falls to the ground, no momentum.
External influences on the ball are tosh, the initial momentum is initiated by the player throwing/passing the ball. Any influences after the ball is thrown/passed changes the direction of the travel and possibly velocity, creating a new vector - knock on etc.,

Try dropping a ball out of the window of a moving car. Guarantee it won't drop straight to ground. It will carry on moving forwards while dropping to ground. Basic physics.

]


Which is exactly why momentum is taken into account - you couldn't play the game otherwise, unless you stopped everytime you passed the ball.

The ball is [ipassed[/i backwards by the player's hands but goes forward due to player's momemtum - the pass is ok [see notes in laws], aka Stevo's 'momentum rule'.
Ball is passed backwards but is blown forward by the wind - the pass is ok[ note in the laws].
These are two specific instances which are mentioned within the laws of the game to show that external influences are taken into account.
It is the direction of the pass which is important [ie, it is not [ithrown[/i forward] and not where the ball finishes up. In the opinion of the ref, natch!