James Roby was a talented young player, who came into the saints team when the King was on top of his game, we had a dominent pack and the play the ball area was heavily policed......what happens next? - Robes comes on, saints can play the ball quickly and Robes looks like a world beater........

The game has now changed for saints - our pack is less dominent and the play the ball has been slowed down....the King is still the King btw!!

If you look at it objectively, what do saints now get from Roby?

In my opinion, we get a good solid defence (not as effective as the King, but that's a big ask for anyone)............

It's with the ball in hand that he falls short - His runs from dummy half are not as effective as before, when he does make a break he often loses the ball in his haste to play the ball quickly - his passing in general play is average at best and the abilty to put players through a gap, like the King can do, is non existent........

The measure of his input is best taken when he starts - Apart from the name on his shirt, which tells us he is on the pitch, what do we get from him - not a lot unfortunately.......no big hits, no line breaks, no defence splitting passes - in a nutshell, he tackles and passes (often poorly).....

I'm not suggesting it is an attitude issue either, I just don't think he has developed his game sufficiently since coming into the team - I do think, however, that he won the MOS on the back of coming on after the King had done the hard work - it is also difficult to understand how the King has never won the MOS, when he has been the best forward (not just hooker/number 9) in the comp since 1996.........thats another debate tho

With Moore coming back an established SL player, with natural abiity as a ball player/out of hand kicker and possesing more bulk/power than Robes, this makes him the natural and correct choice to start when the King retires.

To cope with the slower play the balls and the lack of a dominent pack, we need an interchange hooker with the ability to do more than make the odd dart from dummy half.

As Robes is a current international, on a big contract and still hyped by the likes of stevo, should saints consider cashing in thus freeing up some salary cap and bringing through a more natural ball player to exploit defences (don't forget the play the ball is to slow for Robes to be effective)..........

If you don't agree with me, it's only a matter of opinion after all, just look at his overall game over the next few weeks. You will probably need to take the rose tinted glasses of first mind

Enjoy your rugby league

Robes came on yesterday and first touch of teh ball made 15 easy materoonies. He did ok for a lad with a snapped arm. Think he only knocked on once, when he thought he was a prop and run it in full tilt and got smashed. Just like Kyle did later on, grrrrrrrrr. Robes falls out of tackles at will, one minute you think he is done, the next he is free and off down the field.
I dont think we need to cash in on robes, he is one smart cookie and fearless and tackles so far above his weight he should be nicknamed "the ant".

I'm not focussing on one particular game, I'm trying to be objective about his overall contribution........You haven't commented on my main concerns.....Poor ball player, no kicking game, only the odd dart from dummy half, no impact when he starts the game etc.......As I said originally, it's worth having a good look at his complete game during the next few weeks.........

Poor ball player? You mean as in standing up and rollign it between his legs to the chap behind him? I seem to recall him knock on a few times at the PTB, but so does everyone. KC has a shyt kickign game, so much so he has never kicked. Tommy Hodg was better infact. Makes plenty darts from dummy half, scores a fair few from doign so to, and can scoot from dummy in his own 10 and be down on the opposition 10 in no time, or slip the pass for a wonder try.

i agree - Roby winning the MOS in 2006 would be a farcical suggestion.

2007 whenever it was, point still stands (as outlined by OP).

The only reason our forward pack is less strong is that we have two of our three best props missing. All of our playmakers and outside backs are guaranteed to suffer from this, as would those of any side in the league under the same circumstances. Roby was not the only hooker who fell short in some areas - KC's passing was wayward at times on Sunday.

I do think Roby is nowhere near the standards of passing, tackling and running he set 18 months ago. Some of this is to do with a decline in his abilities (probably through injury), but the majority is down to being worked out by defence coaches. He's a far, far better player than Higham, but i suspect he'll go the same way. I doubt Moore has the commitment or determination of Roby, but his skill set is far greater. Which means it's much harder for defences to plan for him

No mate, sorry if your not up to speed on rugby terminology.......when I say ball player, I mean someone with the ability to spot a gap and to put a runner through it etc..........

I haven't suggested that the King can kick, that's not what I am saying........We need an interchange hooker with the ability to do more than make one break a game and be a solid defender....

You are obviously a big Robes supporter, and there's nothing wrong with that. He is a decent player, he just doesn't have the basic skills to break down a solid defence. Just look at 100% of his contribution over the next few weeks, not just the stand out moments......

And if you suggest that he is more effective than the King, and can be as consistently dominent, then I am owned by your superior knowledge of the sport

Fair point, but I'm not looking at Sunday's game - everyone has an off day - I'm trying to be objective over a period of time - If our starting pack was at full strength, the play the ball would still be slow. That's one of the key points I am trying to get accross. Roby doesn't appear to have the inteligence to develop his game beyond being able to make the odd dart from dummy half on the rare occassion that a defender forgets to lie onin the tackle.......

ref Moore.

The OP stated that your pack is not as dominant thus Roby is unable to show the flair he has. Moore currently is behind a dominant pack. At Cas he wasn't and look at his performance for them.

I would say next year you need to work on the pack (Graham can't win a game on his own even with his commitment) whilst you still have KC for the 2011 season without him.

Good point, although the dominant pack comment is only part of the equation - I think our main issue has been the slowing down of the play the ball and Roby's problems dealing with this. It hasn't been an issue for the King, as he has a more powerfull game and more basic rugby league skills than Roby..........btw, think Moore will be back at saints next season -even if the King doesn't hang up his crown

The reduction in Roby's effectiveness is down to two things:

1 - The yearly decay of our squad, we get weaker in the forwards every year
2 - The RFL's decision to allow a longer 'wrestle' at the play the ball in an attempt to copy the NRL interpretation. This results in holding down going unpunished meaning there are no quick play the balls anymore.