I rate Makinson, good athlete, high skill level, good instincts. He's going to be a terrific player.

Given that only out resident troll wanted to make this stuff about a score between the two, I'd rather focus on what a good game Ryan Hall had. Don't think Makinson did a lot wrong.

The resurrection of old threads are indicative of the pertinence of the original points being made. The desperation involved in bookmarking and resurrecting on this occasion is duly noted however. I'm quite sure that among Ryan's most vociferous twig-snapping admirers, it remains the case that when he plays well, it's because he's the W'B'W. When he plays poorly it's all Joel Moon's fault.

A good performance by the World's 'Biggest' Winger on Saturday from a "Poor Man's Lesley Vainikolo" perspective. Particularly so given the absence of tries on his part. That's what wingers are for aren't they? To score tries? And he didn't score any... again!

By my reckoning... and I'll defer to TVOC here if I'm mistaken... Hall and Makinson have played against one another in Leeds V Saints games on 7 occasions. I believe the current scoreline is Hall 1 try, Makinson 6 tries.

On an unrelated point, Saints were extremely poor on Saturday. They've lost their last 3 fixtures but could quite easily not have won any of their previous 7 fixtures as they rode their luck against Wakey, Hudds (in the CC), Castleford and edged out Leeds with a last minute Makinson try. Was Hohaia injured? If not, why wasn't he playing at stand off instead of the gawd awful Wilkin? I think they are missing Wheeler badly and their Aussie scrum half Walsh was clearly playing injured and didn't give the impression he wanted to be out there as he overindulged in several soccer-esque episodes of amateur dramatics regarding his injury concerns.

Given Leeds overall team performance on Saturday, I think Saints would have needed to play the best they'd done all season to get anywhere near and they were nowhere near. From a Leeds perspective, there's much work to be done. That game should have been done and dusted at half time with the amount of possession and field position they had.

And right on cue, my biggest stalker has just turned up inside less than 5 minutes with a response.

Just like "Moschops" used to

Are you Eddie Hemmings?

Probably down to Moon.

As an aside, and I don't expect you to engage in a sensible discussion about this, but Moon's try was a perfect example of Moon's failings as a centre whilst also illustrative of his stronger points. From the moment he received the ball against a defence that had been dragged from right to left, his sole intention was to run wider, taking all of Hall's space away.

Now, on this occasion he had the strength to score and it was a decent enough try but was also illustrative of what he always does, ball in hand. It's why he's a decent player but he'll never be a Brad Godden. No spacial awareness at all.

On how many of those occasions was Moon the centre for Hall and what was Hall's try tally against Saints like before 2013?

OMG thats almost sensible

From someone who's gone through more usernames than anyone on the internet ever...

And I was just in the process of quoting someone else actually when you happened to post your load of drivel.

By my reckoning, that particular record probably belongs to our resident lycra wearing gym loiterer Loiner James AKA Flexwheeler, Snake Eater, Wilfred T Pricklepop, Jack Bauer and many many more.

The job of the winger like every player is to contribute to a positive result for the team.

As far as I'm aware based on other sources... Hall has scored 4 tries during his last 10 appearances against St Helens.

[uHall's 5 appearances V St Helens (2013-2014)[/u
Centre partner Moon 4 times - 2 tries scored
Centre partner Ward 1 time - 0 tries scored

[uHall's 5 appearances V St Helens (2011-2012)[/u
Centre partner Hardaker 2 times - 0 tries
Centre partner Ablett 1 time - 1 try
Centre partner Delaney 1 time - 0 tries
Centre partner Senior 1 time - 1 try

Quote ="G1"Probably down to Moon. As an aside, and I don't expect you to engage in a sensible discussion about this, but Moon's try was a perfect example of Moon's failings as a centre whilst also illustrative of his stronger points. From the moment he received the ball against a defence that had been dragged from right to left, his sole intention was to run wider, taking all of Hall's space away. Now, on this occasion he had the strength to score and it was a decent enough try but was also illustrative of what he always does, ball in hand. It's why he's a decent player but he'll never be a Brad Godden. No spacial awareness at all. On how many of those occasions was Moon the centre for Hall and what was Hall's try tally against Saints like before 2013?'" Hall's try tally prior to 2013 was 11 in 16 appearances vs Saints Since then it's 2 in 4 appearances with Moon at centre (one more with Ward without scoring). Both coming in the 20-12 win at Langtree last year. One try didn't involve Moon, the other did. In fact it was probably his best piece of attacking centre work in his time at the club and saw him originally running back inside before straightening up, shame we haven't seen a bit more of this since then. m.youtube.com/watch?v=RBOD6b9Tabs

Quote ="G1"Probably down to Moon. As an aside, and I don't expect you to engage in a sensible discussion about this, but Moon's try was a perfect example of Moon's failings as a centre whilst also illustrative of his stronger points. From the moment he received the ball against a defence that had been dragged from right to left, his sole intention was to run wider, taking all of Hall's space away. Now, on this occasion he had the strength to score and it was a decent enough try but was also illustrative of what he always does, ball in hand. It's why he's a decent player but he'll never be a Brad Godden. No spacial awareness at all. On how many of those occasions was Moon the centre for Hall and what was Hall's try tally against Saints like before 2013?'" Hall's try tally prior to 2013 was 11 in 16 appearances vs Saints Since then it's 2 in 4 appearances with Moon at centre (one more with Ward without scoring). Both coming in the 20-12 win at Langtree last year. One try didn't involve Moon, the other did. In fact it was probably his best piece of attacking centre work in his time at the club and saw him originally running back inside before straightening up, shame we haven't seen a bit more of this since then. m.youtube.com/watch?v=RBOD6b9Tabs

Any centre in the game would have done the same as Moon in that situation. The try was their for the taking and he scored it, as he should have done. Watkins does exactly the same in many similar situations this year.

I see no mention of the one in the first half, where Moon gave the ball to Hall with acres of space in the Saints 20, but the choice was to run at the defender, rather than round him. That is not a fault of Hall, it mearly highlights that what you say you crave for, you actually miss all the time when it happens. Halls strongest point in try scoring, will and always has been execution in limited space with strength against the defender. Using the space around a defender is not something he looks for. I am sure Moon also knows what Halls strengths are.

I don't think there are many defenders hanging around out wide that Hall will stand up and go round. You need some after-burners for that and acceleration of that kind is not one of Hall's assets. As Gotcha says, it isn't an option in any relatively confined space. There are very few wingers who would have successfully taken the touchline route if I'm thinking of the same incident.

He does have good speed once motoring and is an absolute nightmare to stop close to the line. And if he can get enough space for his speed to get him on the outside, he takes some putting over the touchline.

Problem was it wasn't like a typical one on one with the opposite winger, he had firstly Walsh and LMS was just behind with one other Saints player (Turner I believe) who could've gotten over to help bundle him into touch. He did the right thing as the numbers weren't in his favour and we had another tackle. Nothing wrong when you have a winger who knows when to go for it and when not to.

Why don't you go on TRLFF and see how long you last?or do you go on there and not troll?

Moon's MO is almost always to arc outside his opposite man, look to engage Hall's marker for long enough to give him a little space down the touchline, then slip out the pass.

He's not a Newlove or Senior who can put a big left foot step on and power through the inside shoulder of a defender. Ironically, when he has done that and managed to make a break he's often looking inside to the likes of Hardaker, Burrow or McGuire trailing up the middle of the park and feeding off him.

I'd be interested to see his try assist stats since he came to Leeds compared to some of the other options the club tried at left centre post-Senior.

Senior often didn't need to step at all - he was quite willing to run hard and straight, which was often enough to pull in the defending winger. He was then also strong enough to get a pass away in the tackle. It's only an option for big strong centre willing to get hit hard.

That's a very different way of making space than say Jamie Lyon, who runs exquisite angles which keep all his options open until the last second, and can make good decisions almost every time. Lyon should be required study for all wannabe centres, as the way he plays terrifies the best defences and he isn't bigger or faster than his opponents.

IMO its the angle (and clear intent) which Moon runs which causes most of this debate. Not arguing that particular case where he scored was wrong, but he could do with straightening up so that he doesn't run so near to the touchline.

I agree BR & it's a constant bugbear of mine that centres too often run diagonally reducing the space available to their wingers.
It simply plays into the hands of the drifting defence.
Leaving that space gives the winger the opportunity to go outside or inside his man or in Hall's case to try to go over the top of him.
Easier said than done though.
Contrast Moon's lines with those of Watkins who tends to run straighter.

..... before throwing the ball into touch.

... but true.

Standard coaching technique is for the ball carrier to run a slight curve (outwards) then to straighten up slightly back inside before offloading to the outside runner.

This checks the inside defender and draws in the outside defender giving the outside receiver a possible opening.

Alternatively the ball carrrier continues running across drawing in the outside defender and then drops of the outside runner back inside if the inside sliding defence is slow or missing.

But that's Briscoe's fault.

Standard coaching technique...its ALWAYS the ball carries fault.



and to be fair McGuire at least put his hand up to acknowledge the fact.