I predict MjM is going to have a field day picking holes in all that.

<pulls up chair to watch>

Leeds don't receive full monies - the salaries in RU are higher than RL and they have bigger squads - it is unlikely they can put the playing/coaching set up together for less than 2.5m - Caddick may have put the money in years ago but he stopped when the university took over. Giving it back to GH was the last thing he/Caddick wanted.

On the stand you would have thought with Caddick building it they would have gone for something above basic - it would seem money is even tighter than many on here think.

Lets see shall we - he will obviously have the accounts for the past 3 years to review - he is not the only accountant on here

Kidwell did an excellent job at Souths before he went to Melbourne - he is the next off Bellamy's conveyer belt - not a man to argue with either.

1 season as a youth coach, and 1 season as an assistant doesnt provide you with the experience to be head coach at a club like leeds. Maguire was an assistant for 7 years, working under Bellamy, Maninga and Elliott.

So the Leeds Tykes are not funded by the Leeds Club

"At 31 October 2010 the club had £2.36m in the bank and had lent a further £1.7m to Leeds Carnegie to cover their cash deficit (which I ASSUME we'll be getting back...). It's very cash-rich for an RL club and whilst obviously money will need to be borrowed either from within or without the group it's a decent starting point to the funding."

From the financial statements of Leeds RUFC Limited:

Year ended 31 August 2001 "During the year a loan to the company of £1,237,445 was waived by Paul Caddick (Holdings) plc."

Year ended 31 August 2004 "Caddick group plc have provided further loans to the company in the year of £767,050".

Year ended 31 August 2006 "Caddick Group plc, the ultimate parent undertaking, have provided further loans to the company in the year of £1,120,000.

Period ended 30 June 2007 "At the period end, Caddick Group plc, the ultimate parent undertaking, waived £2,289,506 of balances due from the company"

Year ended 30 June 2008 the company had a net profit of exactly nil as then owners Leeds Met covered all the losses incurred: "Leeds Metropolitan University Higher Education Corporation [paid £1,176,577 in respect of naming rights, advertising and promotion".

Year ended 30 June 2009 as per 2008, the subsidy this year being £892,892. However Caddick Group plc had in between times also pumped in £240,000 of Tetley's-style deferred sponsorship, that being written off over ten years.

Year ended 30 June 2010. These accounts are sat on my desk at work so I can't tell you the figures but, and this may add fuel to your conspiracy theory, the loans that year were stumped up by the cash rich Leeds Rhinos and as at 31 October 2010 Leeds CF&A Ltd were reporting that "the company provided a loan of £1,325,999 to Leeds RUFC Ltd". When the [iloan waiver[/i comes if it is from Leeds RLFC rather than Caddick Group plc I will be the first to chain myself to Caddick's Bentley demanding our £1.4m back.

Oh for Christ's sake, Elliott would be a disaster. Where do you think Brian Mac and Lowes picked up their coaching techniques?

David Furner might be available soon, by the way.

I think the idea that Caddick is personally putting in millions to support the tykes is a fallacy, how many individuals have that amount of spare cash, ie money not tied up in shares/property - Caddick may be wealthy but he is not Mike Ashley or Graham Kirkham.

I think the numbers show he hasn't actually put much money into Leeds over recent years which suggests the RL income is helping to support the loss making RU - this would be entirely consistent with the logical thoughts that the building of industrial units isn't quite what it used to be given the economy.

Did the two million not come from the development of the training facility and the sale of the other rugby ground at Adel?

This is the problem when you get non accountants trying to interpret accounts. The accounts, especially the balance sheet is a snap shot at a point in time - it doesn't mean that the Rhinos have 2m in the bank all the time. August will be a high point it would interesting to see the bank balance in December when the club have outgoing for 2/3 months and very limited income.

If you take the view (as I do) that Caddick views Caddick Group plc cash as "his" cash then you seem to be implying that the Leeds RUFC Ltd accounts are incorrect given they state that he/his company have written off significant amounts over the past ?

Shall I give the AADB a call to launch an investigation?

Look it's perverse that I'm having to attack this from this perspective as I am fully convinced that Leeds RLFC subsidises Leeds RUFC to the extent that we undercharge on rent and management charges and passover of group relief. But the idea that this tinkering at the margins alone is either enough to dig Leeds RUFC out of their loss making pit or that it is enough to mean that the Rhinos have to scrimp and save on their player budget or that Caddick does not then plug the RU gap through his own resources is preposterous.

How much do you think Leeds RLFC takes in season ticket proceeds in advance of the subsequent season? When does the majority of that cash come in?

The end of December is therefore likely to be one of the higher points in the year's cash cycle.

Playing devils advocate here

The club has to stand behind Brian Mac this season even though things are far from rosy at present, time will tell whether or not he can turn things around.

He has been handed a squad of players to work with, none of which he has personally signed, numerous of which are possibly at the back end of their careers, and has been pointed out in other posts our problems started well before Brian Mac was appointed.

Are this seasons poor performances a culmination of what has gone on previously?

Did these problems actually start during Tony Smiths tenure at the club?

We have been a very successful club since 2004, and have won 4 grand finals along the way, but 2004 season aside i can't remember seeing us being as dominant for the whole season.

We have endured poor spells in each subsequent season although peaking at the right time in 2007 to 2009 to win the GF

theirfor is it the coaches fault or the players that we are in this current mess or a culmination of both aided by poor player recruitment?

I would like to mention a rumour which i was told by a current Professional RL coach, He said that there was far too much player influence within the Rhinos club regarding team/club matters and that these opinions have been subsequently acted upon

2004 was a freak, we won the league by a record margin, with a record points total and a record points difference, with record points scored. No-one did it before, no-one did it since. We cant hold up our inability to replicate 2004 as a failure.

How's about Schoey?

Yeah right.



Peacock player coach maybe until the end of the season: he certainly inspires on the field. Obviously more so than our captain.

Dont even joke about it.

Well, they're certainly responsible for that dire pink away shirt for a start ....I have it on good authority that the design was 'voted on by the players' and rubber stamped based on their opinion.

Wasps 51 - 18 Carnegie.

Only two games left now and they need to win both really. Looks like we won't need to 'loan' them as much money next year.

Just been down their squad also, if they are spending more than 2.5M on that lot then GH needs his bloody head testing!

I hope they go down and never come up. I find it absolutely staggering that they spend up to the cap of £2.5m and find themselves in the proverbial **** year after year.

The crowds will never increase because no-one want's the three point game in Leeds.

I just hope that the Rhinos massive profits aren't propping up this big white elephant.

Mcdermott will be going nowhere at least for this season

I would imagine these transactions relate to the genesis of whole formation of the Tykes - you know like I do that a set of accounts tells us what the issuer wants us to see. Especially for private limited companies - disclosure requirements are pretty minimal.

I am not for one minute suggesting anything improper has taken place only that the need for Caddick to support the Tykes appears to have wained in recent years - which is the point I made in the original post, something you have also agreed is probable.

I would imagine the loan from RL to RU is to covers the loses and to show the Tykes as a going concern? You could say it is all Caddick's brass and how the Tykes is funded is irrelevant - I would suggest outside funding in these economic times isn't as forthcoming and bank lending is much stricter given the nature of Caddick's wider business interests.

To me looking from the outside there have been some indications all is not so rosy: GH ringing season ticket holders who hadn't renewed, the sacking of the RU bods due to potential lack of funds next season, the scaling back of the southstand development and the lack of recruitment in the RL side.

On December cash - I would say Leeds have 9,000 season ticket holders with half being kids so £1m - however how much of the renewals is done before Xmas especially those with kids? I would suggest corporate sponsorship and sky monies represents a far bigger revenue stream and it is unlikely that money will come in before the start of the season. Add to that revenues from games which will be 250k a game minimum and I would suggest December cash balance will be quite low compared to March to September?

2.5m includes all the coaching, support staff and travel etc - how much do you think it costs to take 25 players and coaches to a meaningless game in Italy?

They are however there are still only limited ways one can fudge between two related companies without it being disclosed in the related party note.

I have? Given Leeds RUFC Ltd has sod all in the way of fixed assets or long term liabilities or provisions, the timing difference between losses and cashflows is probably quite small. Therefore the losses being made are likely to be a decent approximation of the amounts the benefactor has been required to stump up.

The company has made the following pre tax losses (ignoring Caddick etc loan write offs and Leeds Met subsidies):

2001 £876,373
2002 £426,791 (low as a loan from 'Premier Rugby' £459,408 was also written off)
2003 £753,704 (another £387,038 loan from 'Premier Rugby' w/o)
2004 £1,027,067
2005 £496,413
2006 £468,132
2007 £598,946
2008 £1,176,577
2009 £892,892
2010 £1,631,783 (I've now retrieved these from work)

There doesn't appear to be any particular fall off there in the amount requiring to be pumped in to keep this shambles going. In total they have lost £9.2m before tax over ten years if you add back all the loan write offs (incl whatever 'Premier Rugby' did to help them out in the early 2000s).

Nah, going concern would be boxed off from an audit point of view by a letter of support from Caddick Group plc, as disclosed in the Going Concern policy. The cash was transferred presumably because Leeds RUFC Ltd had spent all theirs and needed it to pay the bills!

If I were auditing this lot I would ask why Leeds CF&A Ltd haven't provided against the £1.7m owed at their year end by an insolvent company. Since that hasn't been the case my guess is that Caddick group has provided guarantees to PKF that Leeds CF&A will not lose out either way and provision has therefore instead been made in Caddick Group plc; not sure how that would stack up but it's the only way I can see provision being avoided in the Rhinos' accounts.

Therefore rather than anything sinister, Leeds CF&A are just the chosen instrument from whence the cash comes this year. i.e. this is a supporting transfer of cash, not a subsidy (but will interest be paid on the loan....?)

That kind of thing has been going on for years - never get a phone call from Barrie Mac?

I doubt Caddick actively [ienjoys[/i ing his cash into the wind so perhaps pruning of this loss making venture is a good idea?

Wait and see what happens on that one, GH is playing a multi-sided game of chess between the planners, local residents and fans.

So you say.

It's hard to say without asking to see the books but I would note that the first year the company had an October year end Accruals and Deferred Income was £1.1m whereas the last time it was a December year end (the previous accounting period) the equivalent figure was £2.7m. This perhaps gives some indication of the level of pre calendar year end renewals.

It will only get worse if and when he does the recruitment.