So....Ryan Hall scored 30+ in the four years before Moon arrived. That dropped to 16 in Moon's first year, and in each of his first three seasons (i.e. excluding the disaster of 2016) the Hall-Moon partnership's maximum total was 37 tries between them and Hall's best was 23. I'm not saying he's not a good player but there is actually very strong factual evidence to suggest that he's a poor winger's centre, which anyine who watches him play could see fairly easily IMO.

My only point re Handley was nothing to do with Moon, but rather that since he moved to centre the left side has at least kept scoring tries, in a year when our average tries per game has fallen by 1 per game on last year and is barely higher than 2016 pre Middle 8s.

So it’s about Ryan Hall, a fading winger, not the left hand side? That wasn’t debatable. The point that the left hand side, including centre, scores less with Moon at centre is very debatable. It is also worth considering that the backline as a whole is more dangerous and scores more tries with Moon at centre.

I am not saying he is a wingers centre, to be frank I think that is entirely irrelevant in the modern game, because hardly anyone is, but he certainly creates space and attacking opportunities for the whole back line when he plays there.

Ryan Halks less tries are far more to do with Rysn Hall than they are to do with whom is centre alongside him. This along with less acting kicks to utilise him, a team tactic to go through forwards more, and defensive set ups.

So you're saying Ryan Hall suddenly became a shadow of his former self the year Moon arrived, and yet has excelled for England there until last year, and won MoM at Wembley in 2014? Or that a Leeds team including the same playmakers over the period to 2015 for some inexplicable reason decided they could get more tries elsewhere once Moon arrived?

I'd say the far simpler and more obvious answer is that Joel Moon is a strong running ball hog, who routinely runs lines which leave no space for his winger. He's very effective at it, but he's a shocking wingers centre. The odd thing to me is that when he does run straighter he has all the skills necessary to put his winger away unlike a lot of centres nowadays, and he'd be far more effective at both if he didn't run the same line 90% of the time. It also, to me at least, shows why he's a poor stand off.

spot on

No. I said exactly what I said on the other page, which isn't what you have somehow interpreted, and I thought it was pretty clear. I said that the left hand side did not suffer on Moon playing centre there, only Ryan Hall's individual tries stuttered. That is different to what you were saying, which seems to be all about Ryan Hall. To add to that, far from saying Hall became a shadow of his former self the year Moon arrived, I said he is a fading winger. It is now five seasons since 2014, if you think Ryan Hall is the same player he was then there is no point in talking about it. What Moon provided the backline far exceeds what you are crediting him with, regardless of Ryan Hall.



I think it is more a case that you are living in the past. There isn't that type of centre around now, the whole game isn't played to that way. Hopefully it will return, but you are unfairly tarnishing one player with a myth that others do different. I wasn't defending Joel Moon, I am just stating that you could have put plenty other centres there also, and the result not only might not have been the same, but probably would have been a lot worse of a return on the left hand side.


Edit: Just to back up with a bit of fact, as I said what you were saying was a myth purely on reflection of what I had seen, so thought best to check the facts.

You can see clearly that left hand edge of centre and winger since 2008, tries scored.

2008 21 Hall/Senior
2009 37 Hall/Senior
2010 33 Hall/Senior
2011 32
2012 26
2013 32 When Moon arrived
2014 22 Moon out for period injured
2015 31
2016 9 Disaster for tries all across the park
2017 16 Moon at stand off now, who actually got 15 tries himself

Ryan Hall individual tries started going down in 2012 the year before Moon arrived, Jumped back up in 2014 and 2015 with Moon at centre, and have then gone down hill completely has he has faded as a player, and importantly Sinfield has left the side, which was more important than whom was playing centre. To add to this we also switched our attention in the attacking side to the quality of the right centre in Watkins once Senior had departed.

I think having Brent Webb at full back certainly helped all wingers with his cut out passes. Since he left other than 2015 our attack has never been as good.

Since he has gone our wide players have never had the chances that they had while he was there.

Another good point away from the Joel Moon centre myth.

Spot on. Webb used to link brilliantly and speedily especially on the left side and created so much space for Senior and whoever was the left winger

I do not think "ball hog" is an accurate description for Moon. Over the last 5 years since he came into the side Moon is slightly ahead of Watkins for both try assists and offloads.

Gotcha - Hall had his best ever return of 33 the year before Moon arrived in 2012, not a fall. The fall came in 2013 when Moon arrived and he managed less than half what he'd done the previous year. Hall kept scoring tries in 2012 even after Webb got injured and Hardaker took over - he scored 16 with Hardaker at fullback (from just 17 games) and 17 with Webb there, so its also not true that it was all down to Webb either. The only major change in the backs from halfway through 2012 to 2013 was Moon. And Joe Vickery for comic relief on the other wing.

Like I say, I find it frustrating to watch Moon because when he does go to the line looking to set up play he has the speed, strength and pass to make lots of room for other players. Players either have vision or they don't. He doesn't, which is why he's playing SL and not NRL.

Just for completeness Hall's record is actually as follows:

2009 - 32 (31 games)
2010 - 31 (33 games)
2011 - 32 (35 games)
2012 - 33 (37 games)
2013 - Moon arrives - 16 (32 games).
2014 - 23 from 30 games
2015 - 22 from 31 games

In 2013 the ONLY change in the backs was Moon once BJB was fit. Hardaker had moved to full back halfway through 2012 and yet, miraculously the left winger continued to score even in Webb's absence and Ablett at centre. The main drop was at left centre, where Hardaker had been previously and scored a shedload before moving to fullback. Probably not surprising that the left centre from thereon scored less, given that it was mainly Ablett, who whilst an OK centre was never a running threat in the same way as Hardaker.

I've absolutely no idea why you'd try to make a case for Moon being a good winger's centre, but if you do at least get the numbers right.

You would expect that as moving the ball from right to left is by far the easiest motion for a right handed player.

I don’t have a problem with Moon at centre. As Gotcha says does it really matter if Hall is scoring fewer tries but Moon is scoring more?

I’d say Moon’s running game is better than most other centres which probably leads itself to more tries for him rather than setting Hall up. As mentioned the loss of Webb and a less structured type of play would also lend itself to Moon scoring more compared to Hall. I also think you have to take into account the fact that Hall is probably viewed as a big threat by opposition defences and wingers are probably coached to stay on Hall more than with other wingers, leaving more space on the inside for a centre like Moon to exploit.