Stats like these never tell the full story. The only stats that tell the full story are records ie in 2012
We
Won x amount of games

Let's be honest here for me a winger you don't expect to make 20/30 tackles a game you expect them to score tries

Hall has certainly done that over the years so no probs from me

No you don't. Unless your side is poor across the park, then your winger will probably be making more tackles. However, and this is the bit Ferdy, is missing, is that when your winger is called upon to make a tackle that it is successful.

Hall, on a continuous basis, is missing one in every three tackles he attempts. That is a poor success rate, whether winger or any other position. And that is the only point being made. In comparison to all the wingers in super league, he has the poorest return on effective tackles. That is not subjective, it is there in black and white.

Ferdy had I said Ryan Hall was a poor winger on it's own, then you would be correct to comment that the stats don't tell the full story. I didn't I said defensively, stats wise, he was the worst winger, and when you look at that over a long period it doesn't change. There is nothing exceptional skewing the figures, it is consistent.

So you'd drop Hall then for his defensive frailties?

If the stats could be trusted then you probably would have a point, but it's how these are gathered I do not trust. I have seen people credited with the missed tackle of others. If the two outside defenders don't do there job leave the winger isolated trying to defend an overlap and "misses" a tackle which in all honesty the issues have been created in field. The gathering of the stats is subject to error and subjectivness which is why I don't see how you can rely just on stats. Don't think hall is the best defender but there are a few I would prefer him to in defence

Due to the fact that some of you Rhinos fans clearly don't appreciate Ryan Hall's abilities I am now going to take this matter up in the morning on your behalf with Mr Hetherington

I will be requesting that your club deem it necessary to immediately release him from his present contract and transfer him to the mighty Saints



Make no wonder you lot are called Whinos

"There are three types of lies

Lies, damm Lies & statistics"

Benjamin Disraeli

I forgot to add that Ryan also looks 3 stone over weight

looks like you also forgot to keep up with the news about Halls weight too

Looks like you reply to posts before you read all the previous ones

And I would agree with you if we were looking at one match in isolation, or even one month of games to be generous.

The difference is, look at every game over last four years. He consistently misses 33% of the tackles he attempts. That is the difference here, and it is overlooked because of his other qualities.

I am not saying to not overlook those other qualities, I am simply saying as a winger he is a poor defender and worse than the others in the completion.

I have just noticed Nantwich question also. So to answer. I don't think Hall has a problem in front on tackling. His problem lies with change of direction and speed of thinking. I don't think he would have those failings in the middle of the pitch. But that is purely an opinion, not the facts that the stats show.

2010 = 101 tackles 20 missed
2011 = 90 tackles 25 missed
2012 = 113 tackles 19 missed (BJB 74 & 24)
2013 = 75 tackles 29 missed

So not really close to 33% is it really, nearer 20% in reality.

Also how many wingers have two halfbacks defending next to them in the line?

2013 When some would have you believe he was "the best winger in the World," it was first noted the amount of timber our chunky winger had piled on, and the missed tackle ratio was closer to 38% .

Coincidence?

Or a more sensible suggestion.

In 2010 we had Diskin and Buderus defending in the middle, we had the latter in 2011, we had Lunt in 2012. Whereas in 2013 McShane got limited games and game time and saw us have the two halves defending on one side more often than not with both Burrow and McGuire on the left hand side that Hall occupies. If people want to think a winger won't have more missed tackles when he has 2 small halves on his side of the pitch then so be it.

Note some of them Saints tries/no try in the 2nd half, they came from players getting drawn in as the original problem started in the hooker-less middle of the pitch.

But that would be too sensible a suggestion.

The suggestion has some merit, and is a very worthwhile counter argument, and some truth to it at times.

However, this season we are the best defensive side by a mile, and the halfs you talk of our doing a decent defensive stint, so personally I would refute your counter argument as just excusing Hall's flaws again.

But yesterday you were saying that we really shouldn't look at just several games to prove it, but his defensive form over 4 years, so which is it?

Thing is I don't think Hall is the best defensive winger (but great defensive winger is hardly the most popular RL term anyway), his tackling technique is the main issue why I was against any calls for him to move to centre/2nd row. But neither do I think he is near one of the worst. One of his strengths is running out on the right occasions to stop the play - his intercept try vs Manly, he forced Ratchford to knock on late on in the 2012 GF, an intercept try vs Wire in the 2011 playoffs, and also the one in the England vs New Zealand which in the disappointment of him not being able to take hold of the ball people forget he stopped what probably was a try to New Zealand otherwise.

No wonder your quality of trolling has declined over the years. Simple fact is anything you type these days does the job - 6 pages and counting from just this.

Do you ever wish it was more of a challenge?

Seriously? A sensible suggestion is to blame Burrow and McGuire for chunky lad's 38% missed tackle rate?

Agreed McGuire is not the player he was, and his tackling was average at best, but little Burrow consistently tackles way above his weight!
And to be honest, if you have to go back 4 years to cherry pick various events in a player's career, when we are discussing current form, then you have already lost the debate.

Personally I'm surprised that the figure is as high as it appears to be. It was not something that I noticed at the time. I 'd be more concerned by his lack of direction with ball in hand, as I've never been a big fan of wingers who expend energy simply running across the pitch.

FYI I wasn't the one who first suggested looking back 4 years.

No it's not a case of "blaming" them but If you don't think having two halves on one side creates genuine defensive issues, no matter how tenacious they may be then so be it. Your chunky idea has so much more rugby insight and knowledge in it.

No, really.

Bless.

I suspect you're going to get through a few of these this season....

[url=http://s37.photobucket.com/user/BillytheRhino/media/babysdummy.jpg.html[/url

Not really, you're embarrassing yourself.

I'd blame Joel Moon as well

I think we will call it 2-2.

As I've said on another post form is temporary class is permanent. Neither player scored but Ryan hall dominated the game. Devastating with and without the ball.

Some people like to knee jerk on here though. Can't think of many (if any) wingers who would win MOM without scoring any tries.