Kirke

....Motivate them perhaps ?

Just why are you [iso[/i defensive of McDermott ? Do you actually believe he is a good coach ? Best in RL ? Best in SL ? Would other clubs be clamouring for his signature ?

I agree with you, Kirke is not our best prop, but you can't slate Mac for playing him when we have injuries. Your comment re motivation is an interesting one - a coach can only do so much to motivate players (he certainly did a good job in the games after the Final), and again, I think the players struggled to get motivated for a game against London the week before the Final against Wigan.

I've outlined in my original post why I'm defensive of him, so I would refer you to that for a reason, and whether or not I actually believe he is a good coach (yes). And yes, I definitely think other Clubs would be wanting his signature, he's been well praised by many for what he did last year, so I have to ask why some of the fans don't rate him at all when people within rugby league, inside and outside our club, have praised him. When I've gone to all the effort I have in this thread to explain my views, perhaps you could explain yours a bit better.

Is that because he's a back-rower?

Your assessment is all too simplistic. These days in SL it is becoming all too easy for a side to run away with it in the first 20 or 30 minutes. A few errors, a few bad calls from officials lead to handing over crucial possession and therefore the all important momentum to a side in form.

Scores do not always truly reflect the full 80 minutes and with the odd exception Leeds have not been “thrashed” on a regular basis.

The “poor technique” and “bad discipline” have been evident for long before BMcD was appointed and these same players with all their faults have a very impressive and remarkable record which includes another GF victory last year and this season a WCC victory under this coach.

Anyone who has coached will realise the difficulty of trying to change deep routed habits and personality disorders in established players let alone international stars.

You also state that a “lack of (visible) coaching” is to blame for these many “thrashings” Quite what you mean by this I do not know. And would you like to provide evidence you have to substantiate your accusations?

I do not seek to paper over any cracks but neither do I put the blame on our coach for poor form from senior players. The disgraceful abuse of a man who has proven his abilities and is doing his best is really the pits

Sorry my spelling of batten upset you but I guess I must have thought a piece of timber is appropriate when trying to understand ‘woodentops’

"Simplistic" ? Why bother trying to analyse performances in such great depth ? As others have stated, RL is a simple game......at times we [ihave[/i been crap. Simple.

"Not thrashed on a regular basis" ? Depends how one defines 'regular' I guess. It [uhas[/u been too 'regular' for me personally this season. For a team perceived to be within the top echelons of SL I would suggest that this season the 'thrashings' have been [ivery[/i 'regular' ....how many times have Wigan/Warrington/Saints conversely been 'thrashed' by Leeds this season or indeed these last couple of seasons ?

..."difficulty of trying to change deep routed habits" ? So are you conceding McDermott is not up to the job ? I would have thought the easiest way to achieve this would be to show strength and drop anybody not listening to instructions ? Forgive my naievity. but isn't that why you have a squad of approx 30 first teamers ? No point is there (surely?) if the first 17-20 are going to be selected despite these "deep routed habits" ?? Seems pretty weak to me.

You can be excused for your faux pas if you were able to conjure up some batonburg cake to share....good luck on that one

Nantwichexile - I don't agree that rugby league is a simple game. Football, I would say, is a simple game - there is relative transparency in each pass of the ball and each play, but in rugby league, analysis of the performance allows us to understand better where we went wrong and/or where we played well. I frequently go to the game and watch it back on my Sky+ later, and often see things that during game time you can't see due to distance from the field or focus being elsewhere.

No-one enjoys a thrashing, but I wouldn't be getting too despondent about the two we've had this year; they were nowhere near what we've shown we are capable of, both at the end of this season and with a few good performances earlier this season, it was almost like we just didn't turn up. What you need to remember is that EVERYONE, every single team wants to turn us over so of course they raise their game against us, so when WE win, I don't expect a thrashing, I just expect a good performance. Where we have thrashed teams in the last 18 months it was the smaller clubs and I don't think anyone took confidence from the score alone, but the performance itself.

In terms of McDermott "showing strength", who would you suggest he drops and why? How many players do you think he should drop all in one go? If he did this, would you be happy, or would you be upset if the young replacements got thrashed? The squad of approximately 30 first teamers, as I hope you are aware, really only contains 21/22 at most who are of week-in, week-out standard, plus a couple of academy players who you might hope to give a game or two to. I've said this in earlier posts but I can't see how dropping any of the senior players is going to help anything; what they need now is a decent performance and the confidence they can take from that.

Players don't need to be dropped completely....you could for example drop the over-used knackered Sinfield and Peacock to the bench whilst starting Ward and Singleton. Webb needs dropping because of his petulance, allowing high bombs to bounce.... and to see what we might start with next year. Hardaker is not succeeding at LC: it seems prudent to allow him time at FB with perhaps Keinhorst given a run at LC (or Chisholm on the left wing with Hall moved inside). We know Ablett can cover if all else fails. Kirke needs dropping in favour of Daniel Smith perhaps. We need to stop pretending Lee Smith can regain his pre-RU form......at least in the outside backs. At best use him at FB or in the middle and develop any remaining talent there.

I agree that Sinfield and Peacock could do with a rest, and while I would perhaps start Ward (on occassion), I would only bring Singleton off the bench - we have other props who would deserve to start (Richard Moore for me). I don't agree that Webb needs dropping, he might not have played well in his brief stint last week but as I say earlier in this thread, he's made a number of tries this year with some brilliant passes and creation of opportunity so at the very least, the good weighs the same as the bad. Hardaker is not playing to his best at the moment but I thought he was outstanding filling in at fullback last week, I certainly wouldn't put Lee Smith there over him. Keinhorst will hopefully get a couple of games before the end of the season but again, I wouldn't just drop him in the deep end and play him every week (I outline why in previous posts). The same would go for Dan Smith, but again, we've got some really good competition at prop (JP, Leuluai, Bailey, Moore, Griffin and Singleton without including Kirke) so there's no need to be playing him every week.

This being said... you haven't said how Mac would be showing strength by doing any of this?

Richard Moore maybe...but I would always prioritise the kids with a longer future if feasible. I agree about Webb's try creating abilities, but the fact is he is leaving at the end of the season: IMO we should be looking at the options now. Who said anything about playing the likes of Keinhorst or Dan Smith every week at this stage ??

McDermott would show 'strength' by demonstrating he is in charge: at the moment the senior players appear to be.

To be honest this debate is fine and dandy, but at the end of the day (don't you just detest cliches ?

) it's hardly worth spending hours of time on it. It's not as though [uwe[/u can actually do anything about it....UNLESS you [uare[/u Brian of course

I can't agree with prioritising the younger kids - if a player has worked his backside off to play well, he should be rewarded for that whatever his age. The kids are the future of the Club but we also have a responsibility to give them time to get used to Superleague, and it's better if (certainly on debut) they can come off the bench on say 25-30 minutes at the earliest when *hopefully* the opposition is a little more tired. I agree it's worth seeing what our options are for next season, especially if the injury Webb picked up last week is going to keep him out. When I talked about playing young lads every week, I assumed when you suggested dropping players that you meant for a longer period of time than just one game.

I don't think it seems like the senior players are in charge at the moment - I think Mac's shown great strength in shaking things up a bit and playing Burrow at hooker, as one example. Obviously we've played the big 3 twice this year already (Saints, Wigan and Warrington) and those are the games that you just can't afford to drop any senior players for; one because it would be a big ask for any youngster making a debut, and two because at any time our senior players could click and change the game. We need to keep faith with these guys for the rest of the year for that very reason, though we've got a few fixtures coming up (Wakey on Monday, London in a couple of weeks, and Wakey again at the end of July) where we could rest a couple and play a few young lads. Giving a good performance against any team will lift the players and should give them the confidence they'll need in the run up to the end of the season and through the play-offs.

Totally respect what you say about this debate, but the debate is ultimately about Mac as a coach, and I've been happy to spend the time this week defending him; I can't tell you how frustrated I've been with some of the non-reasoned and highly personal abuse I've heard (though I've tried throughout this thread)! I can also tell you it would take some highly taxing physical and mental changes for me to be Brian McDermott!!

How long do you accept below standard -performances from "senior players" before they become droppable??
How long as an elite coach should it take to change clear weakness' within our defensive structure?
How long before it's deemed reasonable to question a coaches selections ,tactics or lack of and blind faith in things that clearly aren't working?
How far do you have to run ageing Props into the ground before rotating them?
Good performances against Wakey ,Cas and London will only be looking to cover the ever widening cracks within our set up this year and won't do anything to address the previous lack of even looking like a challenging team against the likes of ST's and the Pies!!
Whatever defence you and JC put up for the coach ,team ,tackle bags and hot dog vender the questions and criticisims are very VALID and carry weight with more evidence to back those!!
Now there are some tough calls needed and burying yer head in the sand ,throwing cliche's about and hoping we come good isn't gonna work.

This.

Something is rotten in the state of Denmark and a handful of top draw performances at the business end of the season simply masks the facts that we have an ageing and tired looking pack, a full back that is either sublime or woeful and a management team who seem to insist on playing players out of their natural positions .