I agree but you will not find many on here who do. Oldeski is a protected species on here and there will numerous excuses for his abject performance. Needs to be traded

Minchella had the basic physical tools to be a decent player. That's what I'm not sure about with Smith.

I'm not writing him off completely, but I'd say you would be in a small group saying Cam should have played for England, and I'm just not sure what role he's supposed to play for Leeds going forward. I'm not sure Arthur would look to play him as a ball handler (its not an NRL thing really), he's simply not dynamic enough to be a prop at his size, and so I'm a bit lost as to what to do, as Smith seems to be as well. Maybe an off-season changing focus will make the world of difference. I hope so.

Anyway, my basic point was that we can all make excuses, as every single player would look better in a better team. Its the same rather pointless debate we've had about any number of players in recent years (Liam Sutcliffe, Brad Dwyer etc etc). What we desperately need are more players who make a real difference without needing the other 16 to be great.

That we can agree on.

Personally I think Smith has earned (over a number years) a bit patience from the fans. He may never be a great player but he's hardly the root of our problems. If he can't kick on with what we all hope will be a better prop rotation next year, he’ll be looking over his shoulder at (hopefully) Gannon, who I think could be an excellent loose, or young Cassell, who by all accounts is going to be a very good player indeed. It'll sort itself out one way or another.

Its been interesting to read the debate re Oledski, as it was a fellow Wiganer who asked a genuine question about him, as to whether he would prosper better with a move away i.e had he gone stale at Leeds.

there's no doubt he has the ability to be a top level prop (note i'm not saying he isnt with this comment), but he needs more around him at Leeds to allow him to develop into that player who is recognised week in week out. At Wigan we realised that changes to tackle height and the pending change re number of games, would mean we needed to change our approach to props particularly, and despite even Wigan fans joking about us signing a prop a week, its shown the club knew what they were doing

Signing Thompson, Dupree, Eseh and chan to run alongside Cooper, Havard, Byrne, Mago, Hill and Ellis (admittedly now at 13) has meant with suspension and injury, in the main we have been able to play 4 recognised props and maintain intensity during games. Yes, we've lost games during the season, but it looks like we have been trying to manage the intensity, with peaks for WCC, CC and now a GF run

Looking from outside in to the Leeds pack, Oledski is the only one who would get into the Wigan rotation, and he'd likely be fighting for a place on the bench at this moment in time. As we've seen Eseh and Chan were signed for the future, but they need to step up in this off season to start to fight for a 1st team spot. Cooper is being let go, so thats Hill's chance to make his real claim. He hasnt let us down, and as a young lad, is now looking ready to get more game time next season

i've just watched Fridays game back on TV and the 2 young lads (Edgell & Lumb) came out of it with plenty of credit, but were let down by far more senior / experienced players, and i'm looking forward to see how they both develop

We unfortunately had two successive coaches in Agar and Smith who didn't seem to value big props so we haven't prioritised recruitment there for years. We started this season with just four actual props, with question marks over 3 of them - Holroyd (fitness/ability to play a full season), Lisone (short minutes, fitness) and Sangare (just WTF). Even if they were all seen as good enough, we'd need at least another one or two to be comfortable.

The plan then was to use other forwards as 'middles' - Donaldson, Goudemand, Bentley - to fill in as required. As we lost Holroyd (just 6 games) we've had to use these guys a lot, but even if he'd played more games, the plan was to use fill-ins.

Add to the prop issue a backrow with workers but no size/punch and its clear to see why we're getting crushed up front far too often. Its possible for a smaller pack to compete every now and then, but not every week, and not against good teams with big forwards. We've seen that for years vs Sts with Walmsley and co terrorising us and now Wigan, Wire and others when they really want the win.

I cannot see this improving significantly without at least 2 and ideally 3 big forwards. One just won't be enough (and if they get injured we're back to square one). Maybe Gannon, Ruan, TNW and Littlewood can offset one of those, but they are very green and I wouldn't want to bet the season on it.