Ah you were the jobsworth back in that October Saturday.

Yes we are getting somewhere and I'm guessing you have finally cross checked your sources and belatedly realise Holliday was a full dual code International, which you had doubted. He also played 7 times for England RU and also the British and Irish Lions.

I note you have not the grace to accept that I was right on this point and you, your Rothmans handbook and its editor had as "a matter of fact" overlooked this players League International record !

Instead you sadly seek to decry Holliday for not having made more League International appearances as if this somehow excuses for your lack of knowledge of this player.

I have already stated that he converted to League late in his rugby life which limited his appearances but not his ability. He was 30 when he played for England RL. Perhaps you can pass these facts on to your editor chum at Rothmans in time for the next edition.

So your original comments were as follows.



So forget about ...Shaun Edwards, John Atkinson, Martin Offiah, Derek Hallas etc plus many good youngsters over the years



This is not correct. As I have previously pointed out the motivation to convert was not the money for most England International players




I think most of the players I have named are top proven International quality as most became dual code internationals.

You can wriggle off on as many tangents as you like but your original statement is based on a narrow prejudiced view.

Having read a fair bit of this I think you made a mistake when you tried to use dual code internationals (Capped England RU then moving to become capped in League) to make a point about the contribution of English RU in general to RL. It's a bad example, as there are virtually none of real note. It becomes even worse if you compare it to the contribution from Wales to our code which has been immense and is now drastically missed.
It's true, that many league players have come from English RU clubs, mostly during the amateur era though. I can think of some just at Leeds, Andy Mason, Andy Smith, Jim Fallon, I think there were several others (backs) who came that way. There has been a huge contribution - none bigger than Mr Offiah - one of the all time greats. So here I would agree.
Citing schoolboys though is not a great example, I think TVOC makes a good point about the lack of league promotion in schools compared to Union makes it almost inevitable that any good RL youngster might have found himself in representative RU via his school.

I think there are two different arguments going on here, and so it could be a long night.

I preferred it when tvoc & juan cornetto were arguing about planes.

I was actually taking the p*ss when suggesting you could count schoolboys as 'internationals'. Citing an 18-year old BJ Mather as an 'international' is a joke - surely???

You said GB International. I checked GB International and he didn't appear. I asked for verification, a link to such record or resource you didn't provide one.



How were you right when you said GB International. They overlooked every England cap awarded before 1975, perhaps because they were secondary in value to that awarded for GB, perhaps not.

It doesn't alter the fact you have had to go back to around the 1920's to get beyond the fingers of one Castleford hand in regards England RU Internationals to cross the divide. You're still proving (not disproving) the case that there have been pitifully few by that measure.



This is a player long before my time and never played for Great Britain despite your claim to the contrary. I know nothing about him and if that makes me a bad person then so be it, I suspect I may not be alone.



You stated he had played for Great Britain. Rothman's stated otherwise. Am I now to assume they were right and you were wrong? As there hasn't been a new edition of the yearbook printed since the game switched to summer that may prove difficult.



You're just rambling now.

These don't appear to be any of my comments.

None of this latest batch became dual code Internationals that I'm aware of although they were are all very fine League players.

Did Shaun Edwards even ever play a game of 1st class rugby union (park rugby doesn't count although it comes close - apart from the cross code challenge match V Bath in '96) after he signed on for Wigan on his 17th birthday?

__________



Leave us alone. We're just getting started.

We haven't even got to the bit where I get accused of being abusive yet.