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Last edited by Ferocious Aardvark on stardate Jun 26, 3013 11:27 am, edited 48,562,867,458,300,023 times in total:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_973.gif



CPS has announced that John Terry is to be prosecuted in relation to the alleged use of racist language to Anton Ferdinand, following "a complaint from a member of the public".

The charge isOn 23 October 2011 at Loftus Road Stadium, London W12, you used threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour, or disorderly behaviour within the hearing or sight of a person likely to be caused harassment, alarm or distress which was racially aggravated in accordance with section 28 of the Crime and Disorder Act 1998.
Contrary to section 31 (1) (c) of the Crime and Disorder Act 1998'"


As that decision relates to an incident back in October, it may be that the police will yet similarly launch an investigation about the Luis Suárez incident, as I have no doubt some QPR member of the public will similarly make a complaint.

No comment should be made about the Terry case, as it is now before the courts, and I do not want this thread to discuss specific cases. What I would like to discuss is whether and if so to what extent the criminal law should be used to prosecute sportsmen who are alleged to have committed transgressions on the field of play, if a speccy complains.

For example, if players are to risk facing public order offences for their utterances, what about malicious soccer tackles which break a leg? What about deliberate RL head shots which break a jaw?

A person who uses threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour, or disorderly behaviour, within the hearing or sight of a person likely to be caused harassment, alarm or distress by it, commits an offence. (Public Order Act 1986). This must happen thousands of times every week in sports fields across the country. Sledging in cricket, to cite just one example.

The general rule which has developed is basically that criminal proceedings are reserved for conduct which is sufficiently grave properly to be categorised as criminal. The authorities take into account that sports have their own disciplinary procedures which cater for improper behaviour on pitch. This can be brought to bear; for example, Evra's 8-match ban and £40,000 fine (compare the maximum penalty for JT if convicted - £2500 fine). OTOH Evra does not get a criminal conviction.

Should the police and the courts now have a wider and more frequent role to play in monitoring behaviour in spectator sports? Or is the introduction of an alleged racially aggravated element the dividing line? If yes, is that right? If Evra was for example charged and convicted, then he would have faced double jeopardy as he's already faced a harsh penalty.

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Quote: Ferocious Aardvark "CPS has announced that John Terry is to be prosecuted in relation to the alleged use of racist language to Anton Ferdinand, following "a complaint from a member of the public".

The charge isEvra's 8-match ban and £40,000 fine (compare the maximum penalty for JT if convicted - £2500 fine). OTOH Evra does not get a criminal conviction.

Should the police and the courts now have a wider and more frequent role to play in monitoring behaviour in spectator sports? Or is the introduction of an alleged racially aggravated element the dividing line? If yes, is that right? If Evra was for example charged and convicted, then he would have faced double jeopardy as he's already faced a harsh penalty.'"


What did Evra do exactly?

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Quote: cod'ead "What did Evra do exactly?'"


Apart from being his usual cheating self? Nothing.

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Quote: Ferocious Aardvark "
Should the police and the courts now have a wider and more frequent role to play in monitoring behaviour in spectator sports? Or is the introduction of an alleged racially aggravated element the dividing line? If yes, is that right? If Evra was for example charged and convicted, then he would have faced double jeopardy as he's already faced a harsh penalty.'"


Surely you have to enforce the criminal law above any sport rules and regulations though ?

The penalty that Luis Suárez has been handed by the FA is their own ruling according to their own regulations, they cannot be used in leui of the criminal law if a criminal offence is committed, they may be taken into consideration by a judge but you're surely not suggesting that a judge can simply dismiss a case on the grounds that he's already suffered enough by not being allowed to play football for eight weeks (no indication of whether he will still be paid?) ?

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Quote: Big Graeme "Apart from being his usual cheating self? Nothing.'"



Its the norm in the corrupt game - a game where the majority of players, professional or amateur will deliberately cheat and feign transgressions in order to have their opponents penalised and it doesn't even depend on how much money is riding on those decisions these days - you see the same cheating tactics employed in your local Sunday leagues.

And the commentators call it "The Beautiful Game".

My A[irs[/ie.

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A very high profile Rangers player once went to prison for serious transgression on the football pitch.

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Quote: Wnidyone2012 "A very high profile Rangers player once went to prison for serious transgression on the football pitch.'"


Duncan Ferguson, for headbutting John McStay? I don't think it was punished on the field either.

From what I remember didn't Big Dunc have previous for assault which was why he ended up in prison for it?

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Last edited by Ferocious Aardvark on stardate Jun 26, 3013 11:27 am, edited 48,562,867,458,300,023 times in total:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_973.gif



Quote: McLaren_Field "Surely you have to enforce the criminal law above any sport rules and regulations though ?
...'"


But as evidenced by the fact that hundreds of incidents occur on national TV that would get your collar felt if you did them anywhere else, we know there's a clear understanding that despite plain crimes happening before the eyes of dozens of police officers, they are directed to (almost) never intervene, and prosecutions are (almost) never brought.

The occasional prosecution of the occasional footballer who (for example) lays out an opponent with a punch, miles after the ball has gone, are the exception that very clearly highlights the rule.

Yet here there's an exception, and the only added factor that I can see is that the alleged offence is said to have been "racially aggravated". Now, I don't think that a word or a phrase can aggravate itself; so let's say that the complete complained of phrase was "you f?g black c**t". This must mean that the shorter phrase ""you f?g c**t" constitutes the public order offence. And is then aggravated by the addition of "black". (Which obviously does, aggravate it; I'm not disputing that - and the law confirms it) - but it only aggravates it by upping the max. pen. by 1 fine Level. So yes, legally officially worse, but not so much worse.

Whereas a reckless late tackle causing grievous bodily harm (such as a compound double leg fracture), an offence under s.20 Offences Against the Person Act 1861, carries up to 5 years jail. Ditto ABH, which includes "loss or breaking of teeth; temporary loss of consciousness extensive or multiple bruising; displaced / broken nose; minor fractures; cuts requiring medical treatment such as stitches" - we see those sorts of incidents fairly regularly in rugby league. Why would lesser offences lead to criminal prosecution, but manifestly far more serious offences not?

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Quote: Stealth Comic "Duncan Ferguson, for headbutting John McStay? I don't think it was punished on the field either.

From what I remember didn't Big Dunc have previous for assault which was why he ended up in prison for it?'"


I thought maybe wrongly that Big Dunc was done for the head butt and other factors played a part in the prison sentance and not some community punishment.

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Quote: Ferocious Aardvark "But as evidenced by the fact that hundreds of incidents occur on national TV that would get your collar felt if you did them anywhere else, we know there's a clear understanding that despite plain crimes happening before the eyes of dozens of police officers, they are directed to (almost) never intervene, and prosecutions are (almost) never brought.

The occasional prosecution of the occasional footballer who (for example) lays out an opponent with a punch, miles after the ball has gone, are the exception that very clearly highlights the rule.

Yet here there's an exception, and the only added factor that I can see is that the alleged offence is said to have been "racially aggravated". Now, I don't think that a word or a phrase can aggravate itself; so let's say that the complete complained of phrase was "you f?g black c**t". This must mean that the shorter phrase ""you f?g c**t" constitutes the public order offence. And is then aggravated by the addition of "black". (Which obviously does, aggravate it; I'm not disputing that - and the law confirms it) - but it only aggravates it by upping the max. pen. by 1 fine Level. So yes, legally officially worse, but not so much worse.

Whereas a reckless late tackle causing grievous bodily harm (such as a compound double leg fracture), an offence under s.20 Offences Against the Person Act 1861, carries up to 5 years jail. Ditto ABH, which includes "loss or breaking of teeth; temporary loss of consciousness extensive or multiple bruising; displaced / broken nose; minor fractures; cuts requiring medical treatment such as stitches" - we see those sorts of incidents fairly regularly in rugby league. Why would lesser offences lead to criminal prosecution, but manifestly far more serious offences not?'"

Could the issue here be proving intent? I guess it might be difficult to prove that a bad tackle resulting in an injury was intentional to a sufficient degree for a criminal prosecution, whereas it's fairly difficult to deny intentionally uttering an offensive word or phrase.

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Intent is a good distinction. There is a big difference between breaking someone's jaw in the process of making a tackle (albeit a foul), and attacking someone on the field after the whistle or outside of the normal course of play.

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Quote: Ferocious Aardvark "

Whereas a reckless late tackle causing grievous bodily harm (such as a compound double leg fracture), an offence under s.20 Offences Against the Person Act 1861, carries up to 5 years jail. Ditto ABH, which includes "loss or breaking of teeth; temporary loss of consciousness extensive or multiple bruising; displaced / broken nose; minor fractures; cuts requiring medical treatment such as stitches" - we see those sorts of incidents fairly regularly in rugby league. Why would lesser offences lead to criminal prosecution, but manifestly far more serious offences not?'"


I shall have to refer to my daughters extensive library (courtesy of her last three years student loans icon_smile.gif ) of sports law but just browsing the "DIY Lawyer" style web sites it would appear that while there is no exemption from sports participants (pro or amateur) being liable for their behaviour on field, there is a "taking into account" of the circumstances so that a bad tackle resulting in physical injury which will be in contravention of the games laws won't necessarily be considered as a criminal act even if you doing the same thing to someone outside any pub on a Friday night might well be - context and consent being taken into account.

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Quote: Kosh "Could the issue here be proving intent? I guess it might be difficult to prove that a bad tackle resulting in an injury was intentional to a sufficient degree for a criminal prosecution, whereas it's fairly difficult to deny intentionally uttering an offensive word or phrase.'"


At what level does intent also become irrelevant? Manslaughter for instance can be punished with zero intent.

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I must admit I've often wondered if, had certain fights in certain sports taken place outside of a pub on Friday night, what charges and punishments would have been brought about.

Which begs the question, why is it OK to fight on a sports field during a game, but not OK to fight any other time?

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Last edited by Ferocious Aardvark on stardate Jun 26, 3013 11:27 am, edited 48,562,867,458,300,023 times in total:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_973.gif



Quote: BigRedV "Intent is a good distinction. There is a big difference between breaking someone's jaw in the process of making a tackle (albeit a foul), and attacking someone on the field after the whistle or outside of the normal course of play.'"


Which is why I used the case of a s.20 wounding, where the ingredient is recklessness. And there's a difference between intending to stiff-arm a player off the ball and intending to break his jaw.

One good rugby league example would be a player designated to cynically take out the opposition's kicker, however late the challenge may be. The intent is to clatter and hopefully ruin the game of the kicker, however long ago the ball went, and is a clear and blatant assault. Leave aside those challenges which are 'debatable' or only fractionally late, or so-called "committed", just take the case of the blatant ones. Let's say a kicker ended up getting hurt to the extent he could not continue in that game.

Let's say the offender then said to his injured opponent, "Have that, you f?g whitey c**t.

What is the argument for not prosecuting the offender for a serious physical assault, for which he could be jailed, but prosecuting him for the less serious public order charge, for which he can only be fined?

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v
LondonB
 Sun 15th Sep
     National Rugby League 2024-R28
07:05
Canterbury
v
Manly
     Womens Super League 2024-R14
12:00
WiganW
v
LeedsW
       League One 2024-R23
14:00
Midlands
v
Workington
     Womens Super League 2024-R14
14:00
Hudds W
v
Wire W
     Mens Super League XXVIII-R26
15:00
Huddersfield
v
Warrington
       League One 2024-R23
15:00
Rochdale
v
Hunslet
 Fri 20th Sep
       Championship 2024-R27
19:30
Sheffield
v
York
     Mens Super League XXVIII-R27
20:00
Huddersfield
v
Castleford
20:00
Hull FC
v
Catalans
20:00
Hull KR
v
Leeds
20:00
Leigh
v
St.Helens
20:00
Warrington
v
LondonB
20:00
Wigan
v
Salford
 Sat 21st Sep
       Championship 2024-R27
18:00
Featherstone
v
Dewsbury
18:00
Widnes
v
Toulouse
19:30
Wakefield
v
Barrow
 Sun 22nd Sep
       Championship 2024-R27
15:00
Batley
v
Swinton
15:00
Halifax
v
Bradford
15:00
Swinton
v
Doncaster
 Sat 28th Sep
       Championship 2024-R28
17:00
Toulouse
v
Batley
 Sun 29th Sep
       Championship 2024-R28
15:00
Barrow
v
Widnes
15:00
Bradford
v
Swinton
15:00
Dewsbury
v
Sheffield
15:00
Wakefield
v
Doncaster
15:00
Whitehaven
v
Halifax
15:00
York
v
Featherstone
 Sun 27th Oct 2024
     Mens Internationals 2024-R2
14:30
England M
v
Samoa M
 Sat 2nd Nov 2024
     Womens Internationals 2024-R2
12:00
ENGLAND W
v
WALES W
     Mens Internationals 2024-R3
14:30
England M
v
Samoa M
ALL SCORES PROVIDED BY RLFANS.COM (SETTINGS)
Matches on TV
Fri 13th Sep
SL
20:00
Leigh-Hull KR
SL
20:00
St.Helens-Castleford
SL
20:00
Wigan-Leeds
Sat 14th Sep
SL
15:00
Hull FC-Salford
SL
20:00
Catalans-LondonB
Sun 15th Sep
SL
15:00
Huddersfield-Warrington
Fri 20th Sep
SL
20:00
Huddersfield-Castleford
SL
20:00
Hull FC-Catalans
SL
20:00
Hull KR-Leeds
SL
20:00
Leigh-St.Helens
SL
20:00
Warrington-LondonB
SL
20:00
Wigan-Salford
Sun 27th Oct
MINT2024
14:30
England M-Samoa M
Sat 2nd Nov
MINT2024
14:30
England M-Samoa M
Sun 8th Sep
SL 25 Huddersfield22-16LondonB
WSL2024 13 LeedsW52-12FeatherstoneW
WSL2024 13 BarrowW24-4Hudds W
WSL2024 13 WiganW12-16York V
CH 25 Batley0-38Doncaster
CH 25 Halifax34-6Dewsbury
CH 25 Sheffield12-30Bradford
CH 25 Swinton28-8Featherstone
CH 25 Wakefield60-6Whitehaven
CH 25 Widnes6-12York
NRL 27 Manly20-40Cronulla
NRL 27 Newcastle14-6Dolphins
Sat 7th Sep
SL 25 Warrington16-2St.Helens
SL 25 Salford27-12Catalans
WSL2024 13 Wire W0-98St.HelensW
CH 25 Barrow24-36Toulouse
NRL 27 St.George24-26Canberra
NRL 27 Canterbury6-44NQL Cowboys
NRL 27 Penrith18-12Gold Coast
Fri 6th Sep
SL 25 Castleford12-34Leigh
This is an inplay table and live positions can change.
Mens Betfred Super League XXVIII ROUND : 1
 PLDFADIFFPTS
Wigan 25 619 336 283 40
Hull KR 25 669 311 358 38
Warrington 25 618 319 299 36
Salford 25 492 479 13 30
Leigh 25 548 362 186 29
St.Helens 25 544 366 178 28
 
Leeds 25 514 424 90 28
Catalans 25 439 415 24 26
Huddersfield 25 434 582 -148 18
Castleford 25 411 661 -250 15
Hull FC 25 320 812 -492 6
LondonB 25 309 850 -541 6
This is an inplay table and live positions can change.
Betfred Championship 2024 ROUND : 1
 PLDFADIFFPTS
Wakefield 23 872 252 620 44
Bradford 23 602 359 243 30
Toulouse 22 624 322 302 29
Widnes 23 499 403 96 27
York 24 609 419 190 26
Featherstone 23 560 452 108 26
 
Sheffield 23 574 466 108 26
Doncaster 23 440 513 -73 21
Halifax 23 457 579 -122 20
Batley 23 364 497 -133 20
Barrow 22 384 634 -250 17
Swinton 23 418 590 -172 16
Whitehaven 23 400 772 -372 16
Dewsbury 24 292 793 -501 2
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